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Post by Courtney on Feb 22, 2008 22:08:48 GMT -5
I have 10 week old pups, both girls, and they play extremely rough. They have cut each other many many times, and to me this is more than simply "play fighting."
What should I be doing to discourage this aggressive fighting?
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 23, 2008 9:22:58 GMT -5
This is really tough.....pups that exhibit early aggression can be very difficult to manage and need a LOT of proactive training/socialization. If these guys are really fighting and not just playing then this is an issue that is going to be a life-long problem, most likely.
At 10 weeks, they can be separated i.e. they are old enough to technically be placed in homes (I am not suggesting placing them at this stage, I am just pointing out that they can be removed from littermates at this stage without detrimental behavioral development effects). I would suggest monitoring them closely when they interact, and redirecting them when they get too rough. Do not let them practice this behavior - so separate them when you aren't there to watch over them. Lots of separate time should be spent taking them out, socializing them around adult dogs and teaching them to ignore, have self-control and 'watch' you (the "watch me" cue) when other dogs are present.
If you could find a pup-savvy adult dog that could interact with them and teach them manners, that would be great. It should be a non-aggressive dog that would not allow rough play to escalate - again, only under strict supervision and I'd only do this if at least one of the humans involved has experience in this sort of thing.
How long have these pups been away from mama dog?
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Post by Courtney on Feb 23, 2008 14:02:42 GMT -5
They have been away from their mom and the rest of their littermates since 8 weeks. Prior to us taking them, these two were the calmest of the litter, fighting the least of all of them. However, now they are very aggressive with each other. That being said, they do play nicely the majority of the time, but the cuts, scrapes, and bite marks are worrisome.
Our 2 older females correct them when they are being aggressive towards them, but not when they are going after each other.
They haven't had their second set of shots, so we haven't been able to socialize them outside of our home yet.
Our 2 yr old pittie cross has never shown any aggression towards other dogs or humans, so I have not had any experience with this type of behaviour.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 25, 2008 8:54:42 GMT -5
Well, the window for socialization is rapidly closing and you may have to weigh your risk options as to what would be more detrimental for these pups: lack of socialization (and based on what you are telling me, this could cause a really BIG problem down the road) or fear that they may catch a disease from another dog. They need to get out and around other dogs, learning how to interact NOW.
There is controversy surrounding vaccination vs. socialization during critical periods, and more and more trainers are recommending careful, thoughtful socialization even before the full set of puppy shots are given because lack of socialization is so hurtful to dogs (especially in Pit Bulls and especially for pups like yours that are already showing aggression towards each other so young).
I just need to impress upon you the severity of the situation and that pups that are aggressing towards littermates at 10 wks of age most likely will grow up into severely dog-aggressive adults. You need to do whatever you can to help lessen the intenisty of genetically-inspired agression and work with the environment to help circumvent possible future problems.
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Post by valliesong on Mar 11, 2008 19:06:18 GMT -5
A recent article in Whole Dog Journal very strongly recommends placing socialization above vaccination as a priority. Very few dogs die from infectious diseases, but millions are euthanized due to behavioral problems every year.
They recommend socialization with fully vaccinated adults or puppies that are also receiving their puppy series shots in a timely fashion.
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Post by Courtney on Mar 19, 2008 21:49:01 GMT -5
Well, we started socializing the pups with adult dogs that we knew were up to date on their vaccinations. We also became more diligent about interrupting their "fights" before they escalated past the play stage. It seems to be working so far, as they are not fighting nearly as much as they were before, and are much easier to snap out of that mindset.
I just found out that their dad is a Presa Canario, and I'm not sure if that has an impact on their behaviour as I don't know much about this breed...
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 20, 2008 8:23:08 GMT -5
Hey Courtney, this is good news!
Presa Canario are a large, mastiff breed, bred for guarding-type purposes. It is essentially a very different temperament than Pit Bulls which are supposed to be very outgoing and trusting of all people - this combo can produce dogs with "iffy" temperaments, so you must be very careful in the handling and placement of these pups. I want you to be aware of something, from the Pit Bull Rescue Code of Ethics:
C. Rescuing pit bulls mixed with guarding breeds is strongly discouraged. Extra caution and care should be taken when selecting and placing those dogs that are mixed with guard dog breeds including but not limited to Neapolitan Mastiffs, Dogue de Bourdeaux, Fila Brasileiro, Presa Canario, Cane Corso, Rottweilers, German Shepherds and others. Since the temperament of the pit bull is very different than the temperament of breeds in the guardian category, such mixes can create unique handling and placement challenges, and should be considered candidates for experienced homes only.
This is just for your info and if you have any questions, please feel free to ask!!
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Post by pettoprincess88 on Mar 20, 2008 10:22:01 GMT -5
Its strange how uneducated people think that pit bulls are guard dogs. so they tie them up in their backyard. They believe more and more that it is since it barks at people coming to the yard. My cousin's pit used to play with my dogs as a pup. but then one time I came over with my dogs...he went crazy just seeing them through the window! He has been put down now... the shelter put him down when they surrendered him... very sad cuz he was a good boy despite those behavioral problems...
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Post by pettoprincess88 on Mar 20, 2008 10:31:26 GMT -5
I was trying to put the puppy picture of this pit bull boy as my avatar...but I cant seem to get it right.
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Post by Courtney on Mar 21, 2008 13:23:01 GMT -5
Would you be able to elaborate on this at all?
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 25, 2008 11:00:30 GMT -5
Would you be able to elaborate on this at all? APBTs need homes that are more than just "casual", IMO. They need dedicated, super-responsible owners who are willing to involve themselves in breed study and training of their dogs. Pit Bulls can be prone to animal-aggression, which is a trait people need to fully understand and accept, as well as manage. Now, add in a rare-breed guardian-type mastiff with its size, strength, wariness and/or protection propensities. A breed like a Presa also requires a very unique, qualified person as an owner. The combination of these traits can make for a difficult dog - one prone to animal-aggression, strong, large, in need of lots of exercise, and escape-artist, and one that is prone to protective/guarding-type behavior if not managed/trained/socialized properly. Many people can make average dog owners. But breeds like Pit Bulls and Presas (among other mastiff breeds) need ABOVE-average owners. When you combine the two breeds which each have unique challenges, certain qualities of each breed may be minimized or exaggerated - for good or bad. An owner needs to be aware of these challenges and fit to prevent/handle those challenges. A 75 or 100 pound dog that looks like a Pit Bull but acts like a wary, guardian mastiff breed can be problematic in a variety of ways. The human-friendly nature of the APBT can be minimized, but the tenacity is still there, along with the Presa's tendency to guard against people who are not in his immediate family. So you have a tenacious, outgoing dog that also tends to be wary/nervy around new people, and hence prone towards developing human-aggression. Remember, a dog is 50/50 of his parents' genetic makeup - so the breed traits from both sides will be there.
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Post by mastiffsj on Mar 25, 2008 21:41:15 GMT -5
The thought of a mastiff/pit mix makes me shudder, my English Mastiff is enough on his own...my Neo is enough, and my Pits are enough. My English Mastiff is THE worst resource guarder I have EVER seen in my life...I have worked and worked and worked with him and we're at a under control level now, but he is more the reason I have to be so careful about who I bring in, not so much the other dog. He is very stand offish to new people, and no one can walk in front of my house without him letting me know.
I have read several behavior books that suggest it isn't the best idea to bring home a pit mixed with a guardian breed, and I have to totally agree. Of course there are rare exceptions to everything though.
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Post by Courtney on Mar 26, 2008 11:07:00 GMT -5
Thank you for the information, I now have a clearer image of what we are up against. At what age would these issues most likely arise? (not saying I would wait until then to deal with them, I'm just curious) Can anyone suggest any good books or websites about this subject? I have tried an internet search but didn't come up with anything useful... Thanks in advance
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Post by mastiffsj on Mar 27, 2008 10:27:00 GMT -5
Some of the authors I really like are Brenda Aloff, James O'Heare, Jean Donaldson, Pamela Dennison, ***Ian Dunbar, Turid Rugaas, Pat Miller....Kellie Snyder is awesome, she has blogs on different subjects on her site, one being about Pits. www.dogwise.com has a good selection, where you can search/view books by subject/type of behavior you are interested in. Kellie Snyder has a great group (Click-L_ABAT@yahoogroups.com), as does Pat Miller (peaceablepaws@yahoogroups.com) and there is also a group that does reviews on books (Dog Read@yahoogroups.com) you can search the archive there to see reviews on books you might be interested in before actually purchasing them. Hope some of that helps!
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Post by RealPitBull on Mar 28, 2008 10:05:00 GMT -5
Thank you for the information, I now have a clearer image of what we are up against. At what age would these issues most likely arise? (not saying I would wait until then to deal with them, I'm just curious) Can anyone suggest any good books or websites about this subject? I have tried an internet search but didn't come up with anything useful... Thanks in advance Between 6 mos to 3 years (the teen/young adult years) is the period where many "problems" or idosyncrasies of temperament begin to arise. (This is one reason I recommend newbies to adopt matured dogs OVER 3 years - dogs evaluated for temperament at this age are more likely to eval "true" vs. a younger dog that isn't fully matured psychologically. This way, there is less chance for behavioral surprises down the road.) I don't know of any books/websites that deal specifically with the issue of cross-breed dogs causing problems due to the breeds they are genetically comprised of. The general dog/behavior books mentioned in the post above are good, however.
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Post by valliesong on Mar 31, 2008 18:33:48 GMT -5
I have also faced major challenges with my pit bull/shar pei mix, as shar pei are guardian dogs (same temperament as chows). He is now on a training regimen and prozac, but if that doesn't help, we may still have to have him euthanized. He is very dog aggressive and reserved to aggressive with anyone outside the household. This is with training and socialization from about one year of age onward. (He was fearful but sweet with everyone and everything when we adopted him.)
I wouldn't wish these problems on anyone, and can only imagine that he would have bitten someone and/or been euthanized long ago had someone less knowledgeable or committed adopted him. He is only six years old.
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