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Post by michele5611 on Dec 7, 2011 10:24:32 GMT -5
www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.htmlDe-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory Why every mention of “alpha dogs” or “dominant” dogs is dangerous to all dogs. The alpha myth is everywhere. Google “alpha dog” on the Internet and you get more than 85 million hits. Really. While not all the sites are about dominating your dog, there are literally millions of resources out there – websites, books, blogs, television shows, veterinarians, trainers and behavior professionals – instructing you to use force and intimidation to overpower your dog into submission. They say that you, the human, must be the alpha. They’re all wrong. Every single one of them. Click on the link for rest of article.
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Post by johnr on Dec 7, 2011 10:56:56 GMT -5
There was a philosopher named Sidney Morgenbesser who famously said that the history of philosophy is the history of misunderstanding the scope of negation. IOW, some philosophical movement would proclaim "All A are B" and when people provide counterexamples, the next group that comes along does not accurately say "Not all A are B", but the fallacious "No A are B".
It's been a MAJOR peeve of mine for a LONG time that so many trainers would call virtually all behavior issues that arise in dogs "dominance" issues. I once had someone even explain to me "well, saying that makes people take the problem seriously", to which I responded "since when does taking a problem seriously entail systematically misanalyzing it???"
Harrumph.
Ah, but the pendulum of illogic has apparently swung. "All A are B" has become "No A are B", just as Professor Morgenbesser would have expected. Now nothing is dominance? Oh, I'm gonna hafta invite some people over the next time I get a seriously dominant dog in. Dogs that display dominant behavior towards people are genuinely rare, but they do exist. Dogs that display dominant behavior towards other dogs are reasonably common. (Pit Bulls tend NOT to be an example of either, btw.)
What other nuggets of scientific illiteracy do we have here? Ah, "dominance" theory was based solely on a study of captive wolves? Nope, pack hierarchies related to feeding rights and breeding rights and a few other things have been documented in bazoodles of field studies of wolves and many other social animals.
So I googled some stuff and now I see that advocates of "dominance theory" are hard at work debasing the scientific currency as well by misusing the term "canine ethology" as though it is a synonym for "dominance theory". Bzzzt. The ethology of species X involves the study of ALL the species specific/prototypical behaviors exhibited by members of species X, of which social hierarchical behaviors, if present at all (and they are not in many, many species), form only a small part. (And there is no more reason to call the study of social hierarchical behavior "dominance theory" than there is two call it "submissiveness theory".)
All of which tends to confirm my long held suspicion that 98.6 percent of dog trainers are flaming idiots. I have indeed long advocated turning off the sound when you watch training videos. Even trainers who know what works and do it well seldom have anything useful to say about WHY something works.
Of all the trainers I have met, Mary is one of exactly two that I have been truly positively impressed by and would entrust pretty much any dog to. The other is Linda Frieze, whose "day job" is director of NJ's Office of Animal Welfare.
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daves
Full Fledged Poster
Posts: 188
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Post by daves on Dec 7, 2011 12:13:33 GMT -5
How many people have you met that have stupid or untrainable dogs because they watched CM on TV or bought one of his DVDs? Back in the dark ages I took a dog to a jerk & yank trainer because that was the only type of training available. I blamed myself for that failure because I am much more a nurturer than a dominator. Unfortunately, the pack leader mentality is still alive and well. The original training operation is still going but I have hope because they have almost a 50% dropout rate after the first 1 or two lessons. My next reading assignment is the work of Turid Rugaas.
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Post by johnr on Dec 7, 2011 12:29:24 GMT -5
How many people have you met that have stupid or untrainable dogs because they watched CM on TV or bought one of his DVDs? Back in the dark ages I took a dog to a jerk & yank trainer because that was the only type of training available. I blamed myself for that failure because I am much more a nurturer than a dominator. Unfortunately, the pack leader mentality is still alive and well. The original training operation is still going but I have hope because they have almost a 50% dropout rate after the first 1 or two lessons. My next reading assignment is the work of Turid Rugaas. I have had people come into the shelter who wanna yap at me about how they follow Cesar Milan and blah blah blah. I tell them I don't and I'll be impressed with the first dog trainer show that does the show live. Anyone can air a highlight reel. On the other hand, I know some good people in rescue who are fans of his. And I also had a "purely positive" trainer who was helping out at a shelter I used to manage who was so inept with handling the Pit Bulls I had to tell her to stop. I had a longterm professional relationship with her and the situation was awkward as hell. But she kept thinking that she could hold these guys on lead just stepping on the leash and they kept bolting away from her and heading towards other dogs. So it was stop or risk calamity. It was an emotionally hard thing to do to tell her to stop handling these dogs. But intellectually, it couldn't have been easier. Oh, but the best "dog whisperer" nonsense was a guy who wanted to walk dogs here who had a limp and used a huge walking stick like a mountaineer would use, not a normal cane. He said he would use this to "direct" the dogs. I told him that if he needs it to walk, he can of course use it. But he won't use it to "direct" anything and if he tried to, one of our dogs would for sure turn it into the greatest chew toy they ever had. The guy never came back. Good. |
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Post by cartemj06 on Dec 7, 2011 12:38:59 GMT -5
The idea that a dog is constantly plotting to overthrow you and looking for ways to accomplish his thwarting are about as accurate as the Idea that dogs are "seeking to please, or want to please". If either were true, then problem dogs would suddenly become great dogs not just well behaved but extraordinary, he would begin to anticipate your wants and needs and do his utmost to start to fulfill them. If you think a dog doesn't anticipate your actions I suggest that you pay close attention to the routines you have and the patterns the dog has, Change the routine slightly and notice the dogs reaction.
The research is done and it is available, some of it in layman's terms but the dog "trainers" seem to always be years behind the real ethologists, or insistent that they know better. In any event Dominance theory may get you a submissive dog, he may appease you for a while. in the long run you may end up with a neurotic dog or one that is aggressive. Your dog WILL eventually defend itself.
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Post by johnr on Dec 7, 2011 13:01:00 GMT -5
The idea that a dog is constantly plotting to overthrow you and looking for ways to accomplish his thwarting are about as accurate as the Idea that dogs are "seeking to please, or want to please". If either were true, then problem dogs would suddenly become great dogs not just well behaved but extraordinary, he would begin to anticipate your wants and needs and do his utmost to start to fulfill them. If you think a dog doesn't anticipate your actions I suggest that you pay close attention to the routines you have and the patterns the dog has, Change the routine slightly and notice the dogs reaction. The research is done and it is available, some of it in layman's terms but the dog "trainers" seem to always be years behind the real ethologists, or insistent that they know better. In any event Dominance theory may get you a submissive dog, he may appease you for a while. in the long run you may end up with a neurotic dog or one that is aggressive. Your dog WILL eventually defend itself. The average dogs reads humans better than the average human reads dogs. They are trying to survive in our world and they understand how critical it is to understand us. Of course, either through bad genes or traumatic experience or whatever, some dogs start misreading people and become, eg, morbidly fearful of even innocuous behavior. Those guys need some re-education on understanding people, but that is mostly in the form of REASSURANCE, not "showing them who's boss". There are, however, some dogs who do indeed try to establish dominance over humans in the household, seldom at the tiptop, but not infrequently as "beta" behind someone in the household they totally respect and one or more family members they have less regard for. I just had to counsel someone about a pretty grim case of that involving a woman, her adult brother and her kids. The dog wanted to be #2 behind the woman. She did indeed have to lower its status, but not by overpowering the dog, but by restricting privileges and helping other member of the family to radiate more confidence. It's going a lot better now. And that's the key. The issue is not so much one of "establishing dominance", but of NOT "establishing submissiveness". If you allow some dogs to bully you, they will. Most would never consider it, but some would and indeed do when allowed. I would hate to see THAT insight get lost in the wild swings of philosophical faddism in dog training. |
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Post by cartemj06 on Dec 7, 2011 14:54:20 GMT -5
The idea that a dog is constantly plotting to overthrow you and looking for ways to accomplish his thwarting are about as accurate as the Idea that dogs are "seeking to please, or want to please". If either were true, then problem dogs would suddenly become great dogs not just well behaved but extraordinary, he would begin to anticipate your wants and needs and do his utmost to start to fulfill them. If you think a dog doesn't anticipate your actions I suggest that you pay close attention to the routines you have and the patterns the dog has, Change the routine slightly and notice the dogs reaction. The research is done and it is available, some of it in layman's terms but the dog "trainers" seem to always be years behind the real ethologists, or insistent that they know better. In any event Dominance theory may get you a submissive dog, he may appease you for a while. in the long run you may end up with a neurotic dog or one that is aggressive. Your dog WILL eventually defend itself. The average dogs reads humans better than the average human reads dogs. They are trying to survive in our world and they understand how critical it is to understand us. Of course, either through bad genes or traumatic experience or whatever, some dogs start misreading people and become, eg, morbidly fearful of even innocuous behavior. Those guys need some re-education on understanding people, but that is mostly in the form of REASSURANCE, not "showing them who's boss". There are, however, some dogs who do indeed try to establish dominance over humans in the household, seldom at the tiptop, but not infrequently as "beta" behind someone in the household they totally respect and one or more family members they have less regard for. I just had to counsel someone about a pretty grim case of that involving a woman, her adult brother and her kids. The dog wanted to be #2 behind the woman. She did indeed have to lower its status, but not by overpowering the dog, but by restricting privileges and helping other member of the family to radiate more confidence. It's going a lot better now. And that's the key. The issue is not so much one of "establishing dominance", but of NOT "establishing submissiveness". If you allow some dogs to bully you, they will. Most would never consider it, but some would and indeed do when allowed. I would hate to see THAT insight get lost in the wild swings of philosophical faddism in dog training. Well said. |
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I look forward to learning much here