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Post by fureverywhere on Jan 7, 2012 16:13:14 GMT -5
 Oy, I'm still shaky but at least I kin find gallows humor...It was such a beautiful Spring day today... < However we must remember Al Gore-when it's Spring in January, be afraid, be very afraid> I thought okay, I'll take Emmy and Ophie to the park before work, usually it's one or the other...the reservation with Pookins or the people playground with Emmy. Emmy played at the playground and I let Ophie run the tennis courts chasing balls. So far a terrific afternoon...I took Ophie to the playground and she was perfect, toddlers stumbling up to pet her, people jogging by, even the few squirrels, she was just quietly walking and sniffing with this happy grin on her puss. Then my mistake...there was a dog her size who had just appeared, I should have called Emmy and turned full circle around and up to the sidewalk, that would have been enough distance-maybe forty feet-for Ophie to lose interest and sight of this dog. Nope, I tried to walk maybe a ten foot distance between them. So in front of a whole playground of shiny happy young families here's Pookins as Cujo. She pulled me down, leaped out of her harness in one motion and went after this dog. She didn't attack it, but just barking and chasing. It's maybe fear aggression? If I scare you enough you can't hurt me...I dunno, any ideas? Know I've gotta tighten that harness. So frustrating, embarrassing, painful- getting pulled over, the two guys with the other dog were built like frickin linebackers and they couldn't hold back their own dog??????, and of course the whole scene just... ... I dunno, time for work...rahhhhhh
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Post by catstina on Jan 7, 2012 18:15:50 GMT -5
Ugh! Sounds scary!! If she didn't attack the other dog, I guess it could be fear aggression, I'm sure others will know better than I.
It took me a while to find a harness that Saxon couldn't slip out of. He can slip/wriggle out of the Sporn no pull harness, any step in harness, the Easy Walk harness, and the ComfortFlex harness. The only harness he has yet to slip is the Planet Dog Cozy Hemp harness (I tighten the neck smaller after I put it over his head).
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Post by fureverywhere on Jan 7, 2012 23:30:00 GMT -5
I was also berating myself for not being stronger but guess simple physics...a dog about half your weight propelling forward. It's gonna knock anybody off balance. Guess it's like when I learned to be super vigilant in keeping her from stray cats. I have to know exactly if there's any dogs within a block radius and if there are, go the other way instantly.
Suppose there must be some way I'm supposed to train her
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Post by johnr on Jan 8, 2012 6:02:18 GMT -5
I would vote against fear aggression if she went after the dog. Generally, fearful dogs just want what they fear to go away. They don't seek to prolong the contact. Some fearful dogs may chase as long as the other dog (or whatever) is seen as running away. I once walked past an off lead Cocker who thought he was chasing me away until I turned and asked him what he was doing and he immediately ran off in the opposite direction. But all in all, if the dog didn't ever realy show fear, I doubt that it was fear.
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Post by fureverywhere on Jan 8, 2012 10:43:26 GMT -5
I just can't figure out what makes her tick sometimes...there was a puppy there the whole time we were at the playground and even if she couldn't see him, she could certainly smell him...and she didn't pay him any mind.
And at the reservation when she's off leash she divides other doggies into-
" I will ignore you"-she won't even sniff them just walk right by
" I will sniff and greet you, if you try to hump me I will show teeth, no means no"
" Hey, wanna play????"- usually reserved for boxers or dogs way smaller than she is
" You're bigger but I'm faster" she'll walk up to the pony sized dogs and prompt a game of tag then stand at my feet when she's had enough.
So off leash she socializes quite well really, what is it about the leash? Maybe that it confines her from making her own choice about another dog? But she seems to see me as a security blanket for some of her other fears, and as soon as I could get my arms around her shoulders yesterday she quieted immediately and I carried her out of the park, oy my aching back...
so it wasn't like she wanted to go after the other dog again...suggestions anyone?
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Post by suziriot on Jan 8, 2012 13:31:34 GMT -5
Sounds like she's leash reactive and possibly dog selective. I would recommend doing some positive conditioning. Off the top of my head, I recommend Click to Calm. And I know there are a few threads that would be really helpful... I'll have to take a look through later when I have more time.
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Post by maryellen on Jan 8, 2012 15:26:57 GMT -5
i would put a martingale collar on her with her harness, and get a www.ellaslead.com Sams Backup Leash which has 2 snaps for instances such as this... www.ellaslead.com/inc/sdetail/34/1018 i have this leash in the green shown and in black, and they are awesome leashes ... if you want to make sure your dog doesnt get loose you use this lead.... |
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Post by johnr on Jan 8, 2012 16:46:45 GMT -5
I just can't figure out what makes her tick sometimes...there was a puppy there the whole time we were at the playground and even if she couldn't see him, she could certainly smell him...and she didn't pay him any mind. And at the reservation when she's off leash she divides other doggies into- " I will ignore you"-she won't even sniff them just walk right by " I will sniff and greet you, if you try to hump me I will show teeth, no means no" " Hey, wanna play????"- usually reserved for boxers or dogs way smaller than she is " You're bigger but I'm faster" she'll walk up to the pony sized dogs and prompt a game of tag then stand at my feet when she's had enough. So off leash she socializes quite well really, what is it about the leash? Maybe that it confines her from making her own choice about another dog? But she seems to see me as a security blanket for some of her other fears, and as soon as I could get my arms around her shoulders yesterday she quieted immediately and I carried her out of the park, oy my aching back... so it wasn't like she wanted to go after the other dog again...suggestions anyone? Lots and lots of dogs do better off lead than on. One of the bane's of my existence is that the county won't allow off lead meets at my shelter. It's true that IF things go bad when dogs are loose, that can magnify the disaster. But in fact, even a lot of leash lungers settle right down off lead. My own theory is that a lot of so called barrier aggression is really restraint aggression, and this is just another flavor thereof. Here's a possible project, Mary! If you and I did on and then off lead meets as the health officer watched, he'd perhaps grab a clue! He'd also trust you and me doing the "experiment". Just a thought. |
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Post by johnr on Jan 8, 2012 16:48:13 GMT -5
i would put a martingale collar on her with her harness, and get a www.ellaslead.com Sams Backup Leash which has 2 snaps for instances such as this... www.ellaslead.com/inc/sdetail/34/1018That's a good idea. Harnesses are great in many ways, but they make emergency maneuvering difficult, as the "fulcrum", as it were, is mid dog. i have this leash in the green shown and in black, and they are awesome leashes ... if you want to make sure your dog doesnt get loose you use this lead.... |
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Post by fureverywhere on Jan 8, 2012 16:51:43 GMT -5
Would that slow her down a bit too? When we first start out on a walk my feet are barely touching the ground at first. Hubby is football player sized and she can't pull him down...but sure can pull him around...you can feel it on the leash...a subtle buildup of speed and she's suddenly trying to rush you towards another dog. Would a martingale slow her? I tried one with the border collie and she used to choke herself pulling till she puked...then start running again...darn if I wasn't in great shape though!!!
If it's a squirrel or cat she freezes, easier because I can haul her stubborn self the other direction. If I pick her up she goes limp
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Post by johnr on Jan 8, 2012 16:57:03 GMT -5
Would that slow her down a bit too? Possibly. But Mary has a GREAT leash training exercise for gaining much better control of any dog on lead. I am literally more than twice Mary's size and she can control pretty much anything I can! When Mary's been to my shelters, I always keep tossing the biggest, strongest, unruliest, most dog aggressive dogs at her and she handles them all perfectly and can teach anyone who actually wants to learn! |
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Post by maryellen on Jan 8, 2012 17:38:16 GMT -5
martingales are no slip collars, so if she slips her harness and still has a collar on that she cant slip out of with a double clip leash she cant get to other dogs unless you drop the leash or it gets pulled out of your hands
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Post by maryellen on Jan 8, 2012 17:39:03 GMT -5
a martingale is not a strangle collar
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Post by johnr on Jan 8, 2012 18:17:21 GMT -5
a martingale is not a strangle collar Martingales do tighten if the dog pulls forward or try to pull out, however. |
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Post by maryellen on Jan 8, 2012 18:19:11 GMT -5
yes oops forgot to write that..
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Post by johnr on Jan 8, 2012 18:25:04 GMT -5
yes oops forgot to write that.. I think of martingales as a sort of "passive failsafe system". I seldom use them, but have had many occasions to recommend them. |
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Post by fureverywhere on Jan 8, 2012 19:05:07 GMT -5
So what's Mary's secret????????????????
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Post by johnr on Jan 8, 2012 19:52:54 GMT -5
So what's Mary's secret???????????????? There's got to be a sticky around somewhere, right? Anyway, there's more to Mary than this one exercise. I get to watch a lot of people handle dogs and I can count on one hand the people who have truly impressed me. There's a fluidity of reading and signaling back to the dog that marks the truly great handlers. And anyone can look good with a dog they have worked with. What is striking about Mary and the three other people I can think of offhand is that I see them handle dogs flawlessly that I know aren't easy dogs and that I know several people, including supposedly knowledgeable pros, have totally screwed up with many times before. I did several "joint handling demos" with Mary in which I selected two of the most notoriously dog aggressive dogs in the shelter and after literally maybe two minutes of handling, we'd bring the dogs close enough to exchange leads. When the volunteers I was trying to get educated seemed underimpressed, I chose two of the best of those volunteers, people who knew these dogs, and let them have a go at it first. Yep, snarl fest, incipient dog fight. (But I did choose people who I knew would react quickly and competently enough to prevent actual bloodshed!) I also knew these dogs and they knew me. Mary just met them right then and there. But as for this exercise, it is so simple it's ridiculous, but it works. It simply involves changing direction every time the dog starts to forge or pull. I know Mary has a much fuller explanation of it up on this site or her training site somewhere. She should make a video. I'd gladly tape it. |
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Post by loverocksalot on Jan 8, 2012 21:10:47 GMT -5
Ok I use a front clip harness like this www.softouchconcepts.com/ and the freedom Harness usadogshop.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=23_39 which is very similar to the easy walk. I own them all and I clip the leash to that and a martingale collar. Sometimes just one clasp on both and sometimes I use oscars attachment from ellas lead. www.ellaslead.com/inc/sdetail/34/1609 I also have a lead that has more than one clasp on it. I plan to purchase one like the one Maryellen posted too. Rocky is not a major puller. But I have a weak back and more recently he has started pulling more than he has in the past. THe front clip type takes the power out of the pull. I use a martingale because he can be fearful and put on breaks and easily could back out of collar. When I know I might be in a situation like that like on the hikes with other dogs, I prefer to clip on to both harness and collar. Rocky can totally loose it if a dog is off lead running toward or near him. The only time he will bark like a scary dog and I am sure it is fear of that he is restrained as he has been jumped by off lead dogs in the past. Maybe that is what happened in the situation you had. Was the other dog off lead first? Rocky would have had a break down if an off lead dog came running at him. It is a fairly new thing within the past couple of years. |
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Post by johnr on Jan 9, 2012 6:14:04 GMT -5
Caged dogs often freak at uncaged dogs, leashed dogs at unleashed dogs and held dogs at non-held dogs. I've seen all of these behaviors so often that I have little doubt that they are all part of an overall "restraint aggression" phenomenon. It's different enough from true fear aggression that I think it would obscure more than it reveals to call it that. But there may indeed be something to the notion of them feeling vulnerable in these unequal situations that may inspire or exacerbate the aggression. But I think it has more to do with the other dogs' more free wheeling behavior in many respects.
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I look forward to learning much here