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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 18, 2008 22:12:07 GMT -5
check out the Colby page... they have pics of pits from late 1800s-early 1900s, some frome Ireland... they are actually smaller than many pits are today!
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Post by valliesong on Apr 18, 2008 22:17:38 GMT -5
I love the smaller, original-size pit bulls, between 30 and 50 lbs.
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trent
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Post by trent on Apr 18, 2008 22:54:00 GMT -5
Yes those originals from England and Ireland that Colby got his start from and the real Colby's today are some beautiful animals!! I just hate that so many people are ignorant to what an APBT is suppossed to look, and act like. Thank you MARY for websites, forums, and all the educational benifits u have given me, because i almost fell victim to the fad game these unethical breeders are playing.
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Post by valliesong on Apr 19, 2008 12:38:23 GMT -5
As you can see for yourself, most of our local pit bulls are still within the normal size range. www.berksarl.org/adoptable_pets.htmWe still have the usual overpopulation problem, but I hope we don't start getting "monsta dawgs" as well.
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Post by tbluverjumper on Apr 22, 2008 12:08:24 GMT -5
Hello all.. This is my first post on the board. And I think it will be an interesting one. I myself do not breed Bully pitbulls as they are called but they are the ones I deal with as far as breeders and such go. They are the "circle" I am in. I attend the shows, and work with those dogs often. I have read all of your reply's and all of them are legitimate good questions. The bully breed is relatively new and believe me is still working out A LOT of kinks (include people). The reason for the bully breed when it comes down to it is simply to have a smaller more compact breed of pitbull. The ones that haven't been terribly bred still have all the traits of a AKC pitbull. Whether they look active or not they still all do very well, many in weight pull. A lot of it is simply taste in style of dog. Variation in a breed. I agree fully that MANY of these people give the bully's a bad name. Hell..half of the LA breeders are guys that have NO business touching a pitbull and are very questionable people. Razors edge has a HUGE part in the bully world and have turned out some amazing bully dogs. As far as taking the standards from AKC and such, i'm sure it's true considering some of the people who are at the top of it and started it, as I said "are questionable". There are good people in the bully group though, very knowledgable of the breed, and know what they are doing. I'd love to help answer any questions you all have. P.S....the random giant pitbulls you may see associated with some of the bully's and the huge fat ones and such..Yeah...those are the "questionable" people I speak of.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 22, 2008 12:56:51 GMT -5
Hello all.. This is my first post on the board. And I think it will be an interesting one. I myself do not breed Bully pitbulls as they are called but they are the ones I deal with as far as breeders and such go. They are the "circle" I am in. I attend the shows, and work with those dogs often. Thanks for your post and for weighing in on this issue. My biggest beefs are these: 1) There is a really blurry line between APBTs and American Bullys - there is dual registration happening which, if I am to believe the American Bully history, means mixed breed dogs are being registered as APBTs. 2) I haven't found what I'd call an ethical breeder in the Bully world. I don't see health certs, involvement in a legitimate breed club or registry as far as working with such an org to create a new, real breed. 3) There is only ONE variety of APBT - period. The breed itself comes in a variety of legitimate sizes, shapes and colors. There is plenty variation within the breed already. Bully folks have taken the breed and ignored history and standards, and insist that the Bully is just another 'variety' of the APBT. Well, breeds don't work like that. Just because someone decides to breed sub-standard APBTs doesn't mean these sub-standard dogs are suddenly a new breed or variety. PERIOD. If there is an effort to create a truly legitmate NEW breed, I have ZERO problem with that (well, aside from the fact that with all the bullbreed and bullbreed mixes in shelters, we don't really need a bunch more being breed, new breed or no). But I have not seen any real effort to create a new breed, seperate from the APBT, and establish the AmBully as a purebred worthy of recognition. I am sure there are some great, honest people who love their American Bullys and want to see the dogs turned into a real breed. But when the people 'at the top' aren't being ethical, I don't see any real hope for that happening. I couldn't even get a response from the ABKC - you'd think an org. that was working to promote and protect the breed would be eager to interact with the public and help educate. But nope, no response.
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Post by tbluverjumper on Apr 22, 2008 16:52:34 GMT -5
1) There is a really blurry line between APBTs and American Bullys - there is dual registration happening which, if I am to believe the American Bully history, means mixed breed dogs are being registered as APBTs.
a) The ones that I know of, that are registered APBT have legitimate APBT bloodlines. There are those that breed bulldogs/english and american's to pitbulls in attempt to get a smaller dog. They however can't register their dogs. The kennels I deal with, however simply take smaller heavier built APBT's and continue breeding them. No mixing of breeds. SOME however do.
2) As far as ethical breeders goes, I do suppose that would depend on what your definition is. All the dogs that are shown, must be registered. All the pups that are sold (1 litter in 3 years in the yard I work with) are sold with health certificates, shots, spayed/neutured. They keep the ones they intend to breed. Yet again though, I can't speak for everyone. Which I believe is relative for ANYTHING in the APBT world.
As far as the reason for the the ABKC is simply because we can't show Bullys at AKC shows. For obvious reasons. It is controversial in the fact that we don't need more pitt's in the world. I was recently at a BSL meeting south of me, and they wanted to impose and a mandatory spay/neutur law ect.ect. which would work....if the county already imposed and held to all the laws they already had in place. They can't micromanage everyone and it will simply keep people from registering their dogs. In california, it is out of control. They need to work on keeping the fines higher on people who get out of control with these dogs, microchipping more dogs to make the people responsible who give up on these animals. THAT is of course a whole other can of worms. The ABKC is always working to improve itself, there are some people up there that aren't the greatest and we're all working to fix it. We would love to see our "variation" of the breed..or smaller kind..of the breed become it's own. However..it is all still very new and the politics of it all unfortunately does take a long time. We're always working towards having it recognized but this however takes time and working to get a specific breed standard.
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trent
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Post by trent on Apr 22, 2008 19:53:24 GMT -5
My question is how u breed an american bulldog and and APBT to bet a smaller pittbull scince american bull dogs are lager than APBT's? ???
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Post by tbluverjumper on Apr 22, 2008 20:03:47 GMT -5
Their attempt in that isn't to make a smaller APBT with american's but when you breed to two together, it makes for a bigger head structure. That's about all i've noticed happen with the two. Doesn't make much sense to me either.
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Post by tbluverjumper on Apr 23, 2008 0:49:31 GMT -5
First and foremost I would like to introduce myself, my name is Devin Phillips and I am an American Bully breeder in Central California. (I am using my girlfriend's username purely for sheer time saved by not registered my own) 1) There is a really blurry line between APBTs and American Bullys - there is dual registration happening which, if I am to believe the American Bully history, means mixed breed dogs are being registered as APBTs.
No that is incorrect, the AmBully history says that is was created by breeding APBT and AmStaffs together for certain desired traits. That does not mean mixing dogs, UKC recognizes AKC registered AmStaffs as the same breed as any registered UKC APBT. Since they the same original lineage, UKC recognizes them as the same dog. The AKC does not share this same concept, therefore to be registered as an AKC AmStaff, the dog must have exsisting AKC Reg lineage. The AmBully breed is just a by product of selective breeding for specific traits. The AKC has long stated that there is a significant difference between the AmStaff and APBT because of selective breeding, and actually if you ask any experienced handler of a UKC and AKC dog they will tell you there is a difference. Well how can that be? THEY ALL STARTED FROM THE SAME THING? Selective Breeding my friends. The reason for the dual registry is 100% of dogs in the ABKC come from UKC registered dogs, some are already dual registered AKC/UKC. In alot of counties and states, BSL and MSN laws are requiring dogs to participate "approved registery" events to be considered a "show animal," making them exempt from being spay/neutered. Therefore until the ABKC becomes established enough, these dogs will have to remaind registered with the UKC to participate in their events. 2) I haven't found what I'd call an ethical breeder in the Bully world. I don't see health certs, involvement in a legitimate breed club or registry as far as working with such an org to create a new, real breed. I challenge you to look take a look at this link. www.ruckuskennels.com DNA Profiled, Health Certified, and Temperment Tested. I will agree that not enough breeders are doing it! I am just as much to blame, I have began the proccess of doing health testing as well as temperment testing. There are been alot of progress within the members of the AmBully community. There are now AmBullys that are certified to do protection work, and I personally have a dog that I am going into therapy work with. It just takes time for these things to happen, but slowly the AmBully movement is starting to make more positive impacts. 3) There is only ONE variety of APBT - period. The breed itself comes in a variety of legitimate sizes, shapes and colors. There is plenty variation within the breed already. Bully folks have taken the breed and ignored history and standards, and insist that the Bully is just another 'variety' of the APBT. Well, breeds don't work like that. Just because someone decides to breed sub-standard APBTs doesn't mean these sub-standard dogs are suddenly a new breed or variety. PERIOD.I challenge you to look at an old Jeep bloodline ADBA game bred dog, then look at a Pam Carter bred Gaff bloodline UKC Champion confirmation dog, and then look at an AKC Champion Amstaff. You tell me there is only one variety of pitbull? I noticed you said sub-standard dogs? My bloodline pulls some several champion bloodlines such as: Razors Edge, Gaff, Knowlwood. Look at a dog like AKC/UKC GR CH Razors Edge Takin A Gamble, he does not look like your average pitbull but confirmation wise he is still an excellent example. It is dogs like him that have paved the way for the AmBully, Gamble had attributes that I strive for in my breeding program I cannot get with other bloodlines. In all fairness, the AmBully can best be described as an "overdone" version of an APBT. Blockier head, thicker more muscular, wide chest......hence the reason the breed standards are similar. But you tell me how many 80+ pound UKC champion APBT you can find? Few and far between because most UKC judges will call the dog "too big". All the ABKC does is give people who like a dog a little more "overdone" a place to compete with the style of dog the UKC will not recognize. AKC/UKC GR CH Razors Edge Takin A Gamble Myself w/ UKC/ABKC Boneyard's Princess (ABKC Best of Show, Salinas 2007) who ironically is an AKC/UKC GR CH Takin A Gamble daughterI will agree that there some breeders that want the shortest, widest, biggest headed dog they can make regardless of the faults of health issues. But that is with every breed! I can find that right now in the UKC in your own town. Look up in the classifieds in your town and I am sure there are pitbulls for sale that say UKC registered and they do not fit the confirmation standards for the UKC/AKC/ADBA or ABKC for that matter. But people still breed them for the all mighty dollar. Although it is sad that not enough AmBully breeders step out and make positive influences for the breed. The biggest stereotype of the AmBully is that it is young minority thugs breeding dogs to look tough, when yes that does exsist, but most of the hard working breeders are good honest people who just love the "look" of this breed. I comment people like Dave Wilson, Richard Barajas, Warren Do Good, Tony Moore, Pam Carter, Ray Certified who have worked their programs to establish their own looks. It is a shame that some people decide to use these animals as status symbols, but the fact of the matter is the ABKC is a big step in the right direction to have a registry that will stand behind the breeders of this style, rather than just taking their money for registration and getting no support in return. Please feel free to ask any more questions about the AmBully and I will do my best to answer them. -Devin- Boneyard Bullies
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 23, 2008 7:55:46 GMT -5
a) The ones that I know of, that are registered APBT have legitimate APBT bloodlines. There are those that breed bulldogs/english and american's to pitbulls in attempt to get a smaller dog. They however can't register their dogs. The kennels I deal with, however simply take smaller heavier built APBT's and continue breeding them. No mixing of breeds. SOME however do. I'm just going by what I see on the websites of these Bully breeders - there are dogs that are UKC and ABKC registered. Does ABKC register dogs that are JUST a blending of UKC and AKC APBT/AmStaff blood? As well as mixed breed dogs? What is obvious to me is that perhpas originally the AmBully dogs were linebred on Razors Edge stuff (and Gottyline?), but that now there is extremely haphazard breeding going on with no clear distinctions being made. I wonder how there could be any real progress made in creating a breed when there are apparently no guidelines being set for breeders. I.e. no foundation dog/line from which to breed, no carefully monitored outcrossing, no distinction being made between the UKC/AKC stuff and the dogs with other breeds thrown into the mix. I'm also curious to know who's trying to breed 'smaller' dogs? All these AmBullys are MASSIVELY huge, 75+ pound dogs. Obviously WAY bigger than the true APBT and even AmStaff. Shown where, and registered with who? Of course, I realize you can only speak for the place you work with. And I am glad to hear they send their pups out S/N. That is rare and to be applauded! As far as what an ethical breeder is, this is MY definition of an ethical APBT/AST breeder: www.realpitbull.com/bcoe.pdf You can read more about my thoughts on breeding here: www.realpitbull.com/breeding.htmlWell, obviously most of these dogs would never be able to compete against UKC or AKC (they aren't even AKC eligiable for registration) APBTs/AmStaffs. If someone is looking to create a new breed, one of the first steps in creating that breed is to form a new breed club that will direct the formation of the breed, create a standard, gather members, and work towards legitimizing the breed in the eyes of the major organizations (namely AKC, UKC, and at the least, FCI). Please note that I am not anti-breeding. If you read the material presented in the links above, you'll have a better idea of where I stand. My problem with American Bully breeders and that whole scene in general is that is appears to be flooded with people who lack an understanding of breed development, breeding in general, and are producing dogs that 'look cool' - all you have to do is visit any of the numerous websites to see brags about how badass their dogs are, how huge their heads are, how super fantastic their dogs are. That's really bothersome to me. If the AmBully people would move away from my breed as a whole, I'd be very happy. But they are cross-selling - to the APBT crowd who wants a really big, badass dog, and to the AmBully crowd - bigger market, mayhaps? The prices these dogs are going for with NO titles, minimal healthtesting, and dogs that do not conform to any standard and cannot compete in any real shows is pretty outlandish.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 23, 2008 8:17:47 GMT -5
Hey there Devin. Thanks for introducing yourself. I have to tell you right off the bat that this board if for American Pit Bull Terriers. I do not support "bully" APBT or 'American Bully' breeders. This board is not the place to defend breeding dogs that are not true to UKC, ADBA, AADR or AKC form. No that is incorrect, the AmBully history says that is was created by breeding APBT and AmStaffs together for certain desired traits. That does not mean mixing dogs, UKC recognizes AKC registered AmStaffs as the same breed as any registered UKC APBT. Since they the same original lineage, UKC recognizes them as the same dog. The AKC does not share this same concept, therefore to be registered as an AKC AmStaff, the dog must have exsisting AKC Reg lineage. First of all, this is from my website (just so you know where I stand on the whole APBT/AmStaff thing): "(The AKC-recognized breed, American Staffordshire Terrier [AmStaff], can be registered with the UKC and ADBA as "American Pit Bull Terrier". Realpitbull.com considers AmStaffs and APBTs to be the same breed.) " I find it odd that the AmBully people say they crossed APBTs with AmStaffs - as if there aren't tons of dogs with both APBT and AmStaff blood already. Your GF above just noted that there have been breeders crossing in bulldogs, etc. And I have this apparent quote from the American Bully founder, who says this: Dave Wilson: "We blended different breeds together to obtain certain desired traits. The American pit bull terrier was one of the breeds whose lineage is in the background of this breed, but it is by no means the only breed behind it. "Even the part of the lineage that is American pit bull terrier stems from United Kennel Club-registered conformation show dogs! There is also an American Kennel Club-registered show breed in the lineage of this breed called the American Staffordshire terrier. Some breeders even included some bulldog lineage into their breeding. This breed has been established for over 10 years now." Thanks for the link. Who is certifying these dogs, and what kind of certification? I am talking about LEGITIMATE, breed club recognized Variety. The only time I have ever heard of one of the breed clubs looking to create a legitimate variety was the UKC with the OFRN dogs. There is only ONE RECOGNIZED APBT - the American Pit Bull Terrier. You will SEE variety WITHIN the breed - just check out the various registries and the differences in each - but there is only ONE American Pit Bull Terrier. Personally, the Gaff and RE dogs are NOT to my taste - way too overdone. I recognize that there are champion dogs sporting both bloodlines (LOTS of Ch Gaff dogs) . I see lots of these dogs waaaaaaaay back in the peds of the 'bully' dogs. I don't see many ch. at all in the first few generations of any of these dogs, though. I looked at an AmBull pedigree recently that had all RE stuff the first 4 or 5 generations - guess what, tho...NO champions!! The bottom line is MANY/MOST of these dogs cannot compete against the dogs showing in legit registries. That is what I meant by sub-standard. All I can say is I hope the people breeding overdone, outside-the-standard APBTs/AmBully/Mixed Bred dogs WILL establish their own breed and MOVE AWAY FROM the APBT completely (right now, no matter how many times you call it a breed, these dogs are NOT A BREED - the standard isn't even legit, as far as I can tell). For now, I have a big problem with the AmBully camp in general, for reasons repeted ad nauseum in this thread.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 23, 2008 8:42:14 GMT -5
I wanted to add that I am an APBT purist. I believe the breed is perfect just as it is. I love the old fashioned, true working form of the breed. I do not approve of breeders who take these dogs and then exaggerate traits - distorting the form and type of the breed. When I see breeders doing that, it really upsets me. Comparing some of these UKC-registered 'bully' APBTs with sound, true representatives of the breed is like comparing two completely different breeds. All type has been lost in the dogs bred for 'bully-ness'. Without type, you begin to loose the essence of the breed. I see no APBT 'essence' in these 'bully' dogs. Yet they continue to be registered as such.
When the APBT breed is in such dire straights, I cannot fathom anyone looking to produce more dogs that in any way fall outside of the standard of the IDEAL APBT. Breeders working to preserve the breed are the ONLY ones who should be breeding. If you are looking to produce the biggest head, widest chest, or heaviest dog, you have no business breeding APBTs. If you are looking to snub your nose at type, at the generations of dogs that came before you, you have no business breeding APBTs. And if you cannot peform health tests and certify your dogs, sell S/N pups or pups at the LEAST on S/N contracts, and compete in legit purebred dog activities, you have no business breeding ANY breed.
My hope is that the American Bully people who love the 'bully' type of dog, flock together and move completely away from registering ANY of their dogs as APBTs. Then hopefully they will work together to create a true, healthy, stable, NEW breed.
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trent
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Post by trent on Apr 23, 2008 18:38:15 GMT -5
Well what i see on the home page of the ruckus kennels link is some dogs with an overexgarrated chest and cheeks. i just wanna know what the function for the dog does the oversized chest and cheeks serve? if u look and read in depth the ukc breed standard yes it will say that these traits are not disqualifications, but they are faults, so i agree with mary on the statement that their is only 1 version of ABPT.
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Post by tbluverjumper on Apr 23, 2008 21:36:23 GMT -5
My girlfriend pointed out today to me, so I wanted to make it known, by no means do I mean to be offensive or give the impression that I will change your mind regarding the subject. My reason for posting is just to show the other side of the coin, and maybe educate people about our dogs. Thanks for introducing yourself. I have to tell you right off the bat that this board if for American Pit Bull Terriers. I do not support "bully" APBT or 'American Bully' breeders. This board is not the place to defend breeding dogs that are not true to UKC, ADBA, AADR or AKC form. When you say "true form" I am unclear as what you are referring to because that leaves a very large gray area. True form could be competing in working events, without regard to comfirmation standards. Yet many confirmation dogs could not compete and be succesful at other APBT working competitions. Thankfully the APBT still has the record for 'Superdog' titles. : ) I find it odd that the AmBully people say they crossed APBTs with AmStaffs - as if there aren't tons of dogs with both APBT and AmStaff blood already.Dave Wilson and the other AmBully founders did not claim to be the first people to do this, yet the traits they drew from each gave Razors Edge and other such bloodlines a distinct look, yet still kept their dogs with UKC confirmation standards. Your GF above just noted that there have been breeders crossing in bulldogs, etc. And I have this apparent quote from the American Bully founder, who says this:
Dave Wilson: "We blended different breeds together to obtain certain desired traits. The American pit bull terrier was one of the breeds whose lineage is in the background of this breed, but it is by no means the only breed behind it. "Even the part of the lineage that is American pit bull terrier stems from United Kennel Club-registered conformation show dogs! There is also an American Kennel Club-registered show breed in the lineage of this breed called the American Staffordshire terrier. Some breeders even included some bulldog lineage into their breeding. This breed has been established for over 10 years now."That particular quote was taken at the "Back to the Bullies" event in Fredricksburg, VA. and was actually a misquote of what Dave Wilson said. It has been addressed and I believe Dave posted the apologize from the writer at one point, because alot of APBT breeders were outraged and petitioned UKC to pull all Razors Edge UKC registrations. He meant "bullier" lines of APBT and AmStaffs. Just like with all APBT lines, you can draw specific traits from certain bloodlines if you line breed your program to do such. Breeding lines for specific traits over time can actually change the look of the dog, without changing the breed. Now, I understand your argument, you are not in this to CHANGE the breed, but honestly the dog you have before you is not the same that old man J.P. Colby brought breed for. Heck if you look at the Duffy, Gas House, or other old bloodlines their dogs don't look the same. It all goes back to the breeding stock you are pulling from. I am talking about LEGITIMATE, breed club recognized Variety. The only time I have ever heard of one of the breed clubs looking to create a legitimate variety was the UKC with the OFRN dogs. There is only ONE RECOGNIZED APBT - the American Pit Bull Terrier. You will SEE variety WITHIN the breed - just check out the various registries and the differences in each - but there is only ONE American Pit Bull Terrier. That is purely your perspective, and you are entitled to it. But the fact of the matter is others do not share it...please read the attached quote taken from southernpitbulls.com: Since 1936, due to different breeding goals, the American Staffordshire Terrier and the American Pit Bull Terrier have diverged in both phenotype and spirit/temperament, although both, ideally, continue to have in common an easy-going, friendly disposition. [2] Some folks in the fancy feel that after 60 years of breeding for different goals, these two dogs are now entirely different breeds. Other people choose to view them as two different strains of the same breed (working and show). Either way, the gap continues to widen as breeders from both sides of the fence consider it undesirable to interbreed the two. To the untrained eye, ASTs may look more impressive and fearsome, with a larger and more blocky head, with bulging jaw muscles, a wider chest and thicker neck. In general, however, they aren't nearly as "game" or athletic as game-bred APBTs. Because of the standardization of their conformation for show purposes, ASTs tend to look alike, to a much greater degree than APBTs do. APBTs have a much wider phenotypical range, since the primary breeding goal, until fairly recently, has been not to produce a dog with a certain "look" but to produce one capable of winning pit contests, in which the looks of a dog counted for nothing. There are some game-bred APBTs that are practically indistinguishable from typical ASTs, but in general they are leaner, leggier, and lighter on their toes and have more stamina, agility, speed, and explosive power. [/i] AmBullies are just the best of both of these worlds. Taking phyical traits from both worlds. Even the the APBT crowds in the AKC & UKC can't agree on a pitbull standard. This is a quote taken directly from the ADBA website: "In 1976, the A.D.B.A. was petitioned by the owners of the breed, who possessed a very competitive spirit, to develop a standard on the breed by which conformation dog shows could be held. They DID NOT want a standard that copied those of the UKC or AKC, but a standard for those dogs that they owned and continued to breed for the traits of intelligence, character, loyalty, and the athletic conformation that the breed was originally bred for hundreds of years ago. Thereby, they could continue competition, in a legal endeavor. Thus, the formation of the A.D.B.A. Conformation Standard.Your right VARIETY! and the ABKC is just that! They just call it a new thing, just like the AKC did with the AmStaffs. The best example I can think of using is horses, anyone who knows horses will tell you that halter horses are larger and not nearly as athletic as horses that compete in other events. Personally, the Gaff and RE dogs are NOT to my taste - way too overdone. I recognize that there are champion dogs sporting both bloodlines (LOTS of Ch Gaff dogs) . I see lots of these dogs waaaaaaaay back in the peds of the 'bully' dogs.Just because some bully breeders do not pull from quality lines, does not mean they will be recognized as ABKC Ch lines either! Your generalizing bully breeders as a whole. I just posted you an AmBully who is directly off a UKC GR CH. I could post more dogs, but it wouldn't serve any purpose. All I can say is I hope the people breeding overdone, outside-the-standard APBTs/AmBully/Mixed Bred dogs WILL establish their own breed and MOVE AWAY FROM the APBT completely (right now, no matter how many times you call it a breed, these dogs are NOT A BREED - the standard isn't even legit, as far as I can tell). For now, I have a big problem with the AmBully camp in general, for reasons repeted ad nauseum in this thread. Show me one CH ABKC dog that is not "legit" enough to comply with the breed standards set forth by the ABKC. We do agree on one issue though, I want the people who breed unhealthy dogs to GO AWAY. I have seen some dogs with serious easty-westy feet, bad bites, kinked tails, etc. and I do not believe those desired traits should be bred. Mary, you keep referring to the IDEAL standard of the APBT. There is not one, that is my point, every registry has their own twist on what the "IDEAL" APBT is. I respect your idealogy and commend you for your attempts to educate people on the breed but your your generalizing the breed Here are two more fine examples of an ABKC Best in Show Winner ABKC Best in Show, Cali Finest Show 08. Marvelous American Bullies owned "Thao's Marvelous" ABKC Best in Show, Elite Edge Show 2008, Pratt's Pitts King Kamali Well what i see on the home page of the ruckus kennels link is some dogs with an overexgarrated chest and cheeks. i just wanna know what the function for the dog does the oversized chest and cheeks serve? if u look and read in depth the ukc breed standard yes it will say that these traits are not disqualifications That is not true one bit! In regards to UKC's standards when it comes to head there is no reference to overexgarrated cheeks.
In regards to chest, this is what UKC has set forth as standards:
"The chest is deep, well filled in, and moderately wide with ample room for heart and lungs, but the chest should never be wider than it is deep."
That doesn't mean it can't be wide, it just much have chest drop that matches. Let's see how many ADBA APBT's have a moderately wide chest? HMMMM.
And as for the comment about what purpose to they serve......this whole conversation has been about staying true to the roots of the APBT so I will leave you with an old timer. (Check out that 'bully' headpiece! ;D)
CH Charlie Lloyd's Pilot
Thank You once again.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 24, 2008 13:03:33 GMT -5
Devin, Lloyd's Pilot had a chain weight of 36 lbs. If you think he's a justification for breeding 100 pound exaggerated bullys, I dunno what to say to you ;D (I knew he was of 'normal' size, but wanted an actual number - view this link for his stats: www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=12598 ) As I've stated already, the policy of this board is to NOT support/promote "bully" dogs. I only support the breeding of standard (AKC, UKC, ADBA or AADR) dogs that show TYPE AND SOUNDNESS, have appropriate health testing/certification, and compete in one of the legitimate registries' sporting/show events. I fear that you are not looking at/considering APBT or AmStaff breed TYPE the way I am. We are speaking two different languages here so it is difficult to have a conversation. This isn't meant to be an insult, I think we are just on different 'wavelengths', if you will I wanted to clarify something you said in response to a comment I made about the ABKC standard not being legitimate. You responded with this: I think you misunderstood me. The ABKC standard appears to be plagarized - that is why I called it illegitimate. The breed club does not appear to have come up with their own, carefully written, approved standard. I say 'plagarized' because there are parts that match word for word with, at the least, the AKC AmStaff standard. I'll give you just one example: This is the opening paragraph of the ABKC standard: This is the opening paragraph from the AKC AmStaff standard: Can you tell me that was not plagarized? Can you tell me a little about the origins of the ABKC standard for American Bullys? (who wrote it, did they get permission to use the STCA standard as a base, etc?) Also.....You keep referencing AmStaffs and their differences from the UKC and ADBA dogs, and comparing the AmStaff split to what is now going on with the American Bully dogs. There are some distinctions that I think are important. (I'll add, too, that at this point, the debate on wether or not APBTs and AmStaffs are two different breeds is at a stalemate - some believe they are different and still others believe they are the same. As someone who is a fancier of both AmStaffs and APBTs, you don't have to tell me about this 'argument' - I know it all too well My feeling is that they are the SAME breed but I respect and understand the position of others who feel they are different - just as I respect and understand the position of people who believe the gamebred dogs are in a league all their own. ) 1) The AmStaff standard was created fresh for the AKC by consulting with BREED EXPERTS. The dog that was used to base the standard off of was Colby's Primo. Primo was a wonderful example of a typical, working APBT. 2) The AKC dogs were NEVER MEANT TO BE ANOTHER BREED, and the AKC was simply meant to be another venue in which to compete with the dogs and begin to legitimize the breed (i.e. move away from the pit). In fact, if the AKC hadn't insisted on the name change, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. There isn't this huge debate as to whether showbred UKC APBTs are a breed seperate from, say, ADBA dogs. But compare some showbred UKC dogs to AKC dogs and man, they look almost identical. Which is why AmStaffs can compete and win in UKC shows. 3) The standard first written for the AKC dogs in 1936 is STILL IN EFFECT TODAY. In theory, a dog that looks like Colby's Primo should be able to step in the ring and WINWINWIN. But in actuality, because of dog show fads and breeding for different reasons and focusing on certan traits above others, the AmStaff has taken on a heavier form and has been bred more for looks than working terrier/bulldog ability. Again, compare AmStaffs to UKC showbred APBTs - pretty much the same exact dog!! 4) Lastly, I wanted to point out that when APBT folks petitioned the AKC for breed recognition, they were working with an ALREADY ESTABLISHED BREED. They didn't move to the AKC because the UKC or ADBA was for dogs of a different 'type' or 'style', or because they wanted to create their OWN new 'breed' seperate from the APBT. The folks just wanted a different VENUE to work with and in. Period! The AKC was also a legit organization. Already established. With guidelines for accepting new breeds into their registry, studbook monitoring, and so on. One more thing.....we are using the term 'variety' in different ways. I am using it in the kennel club way. When I say there is only one APBT, and that there are not varieties, I mean that the kennel clubs do not recognize different sizes, weights and shapes as unique varieties - they are all the same dog - no seperate 'varities'!!! I'll give you an example of a breed that DOES recognize varieties within the breed. The AKC Beagle. From the Nat'l Beagle Club's standard: Please note that official varieties DO NOT COMPETE against each other!!!! ALL APBTs compete against each other as APBTs - there is no size, color, weight, height or other distinctions made to seperate them in the show ring.Another example of an official recognized breed variety would be the fox terrier - originally there was ONE BREED, with TWO recognized varieties - the smooth coat and the wire coat. They did NOT compete against each other. Now, incidentally, the two are no longer recognized as two varieties of the same breed, but as TWO UNIQUE AND SEPERATE BREEDS. In APBTs there is going to be a lot of general variance of size, shape, weight, color, etc because of all the different standards and registries. It doesn't mean that all these various styles are unqiue, official VARIETIES. They are ALL THE SAME BREED - period! There is so much variation within the breed, too, because of the fact that the standards were kept loose to allow for variation because working ability was/is more important than looks. These are or should be working dogs and that they can work has always been more important than that they can conform to some arbitrary standard based on looks. Although without looks/type you do not have a breed, THIS breed always palced emphasis on WORKING ABILITY. I want to give you an example of the differences in appearance that can be found in AmStaffs. Here is a Gaff dog - not to pick on poor Gaff, but IMO these dogs are SO overdone; I believe these extra large dogs are kind of a West Coast thing, as here on the East Coast our dogs would look like midgets next to a monster like this. I had trouble with my own AmStaff who is in part White Rock stuff (NOT known for over done dogs), because he happened to be the monster of his litter and top out around 70lbs and 20 or 21 inches at the shoulder (haven't measured him lately, I forget what the height is). He is WAY too big for my taste, and he is AKC pointed but never major pt'd and ultimately I neutered him (size being one factor). Anyway, here look at this: www.gaffkennels.net/simbasit.jpgAnd now look at this AmStaff (who is actually dual AKC/UKC): odnarb.com/grantnov04.jpgBig difference, right? Just to show you some variety (note: I am using the generic term 'variety', as in "There is nice variety within the breed"), and that a more "APBT-ish" look still exists in the AmStaff ring - but guess what: they are both still AmStaffs, and would still compete in the same ring together. Some AmStaffs tend toward the really HEAVY side, others are more in the middle (the majority), and still others more towards the lighter, raceier end of the spectrum - in other words, some look darn near impossible to distinguish from dogs with pure APBT lines. I have to note, too, that breeds/bloodlines that tend to be mainly show bred a lot of times tend to be heavier, blockier, and just not as atheletic as their working-bred counterparts. This is a SHOW phenomenon. (An example would be Australian Shepherds, whose show-bred counterparts look vastly different from the ASCA working stock from which they sprang.) You mentioned that I "keep referring to the ideal standard" of the breed. I don't know how many times I can say that this forum is for (and that I recognize and accept and support) the UKC, ADBA, AADR, and AKC APBT/AST and standards - I never said one was ideal. What I expect from breeders, however, is that regardless of what registry the are with, that they work to PRESERVE the breed and that their dogs conform to STANDARD and show TYPE. I don't think you are bad guy, Devin, and it seems obvious to me that you love your dogs and are passionate about your breed. I have nothing against you. But our philosophies are much different and we both come from different worlds. As I said already, this board is not for bully promoters/breeders. As far as I am concerned, they are working outside the realm of the rest of the APBT/AST communities. You and your girlfriend are more than welcome to stay and learn, but I have to ask you to remember that this board does NOT allow promotion of American Bullys. I will also have to ask that you register under your own name to help end any confusion - using one name for two people isn't recommended. Thanks Devin! P.s. I wanted to thank you for clarifying the Dave Wilson quote! I have always refrained from stating as fact that these bully APBTs/Am. Bully's as a whole are 'mixed' until I read that quote - I don't like to accuse until I know. I will refrain from stating that any of these dogs are mixed until and if I ever have legit proof that this is so.
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trent
New Member
Posts: 24
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Post by trent on Apr 24, 2008 18:45:02 GMT -5
but dosnet it also state this "The chest is deep, well filled in, and moderately wide with ample room for heart and lungs, but the chest should never be wider than it is deep. ;D The forechest does not extend much beyond the point of shoulder. ;D The ribs extend well back and are well sprung from the spine, then flattening to form a deep body extending to the elbows. The back is strong and firm. The topline inclines very slightly downward from the withers to a broad, muscular, level back. The loin is short, muscular and slightly arched to the top of the croup, but narrower than the rib cage and with a moderate tuck-up. The croup is slightly sloping downward. u like your dogs i like mine dogs more of the original colby line, but hey whatever floats your boat. But next time u wanna b a smartass get your stats right nice pic. TY.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 25, 2008 1:51:20 GMT -5
Let's be polite, ok? Devin has been kind in his explanations of his dogs, and although we might not all see eye to eye, we can at least all be respectful to each other. I appreciate everyone's input and this has been a great discussion. Hope we've all learned something of value. ;D
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 25, 2008 21:14:34 GMT -5
I don't want ANYONE to think I actually am supporting the pit here, because any civilized person knows that forcing dogs to maim eachother is beyond barbaric. However, it should be noted that the American Pit Bull Terrier evolved in this pit. My own ancestors, who were Louisiana sugar plantation owners, participated with a great many others in creating the "idea" canine athelete, who excelled against dogs 2-3 times his size in the pit. The result was the American Pit Bull Terrier. This is where our breed comes from, and it needs NO altering. My own dog is ADBA, and several generations back, is what would be the "TRUE" definition of game bred. And she is half the size of these Bullies. I want to make it VERY CLEAR that the pit bull breed has NO other "forms". The dogmen who created this breed were not interested in color or anything else other than the ideal dog for the pit. The dogman's favorite color was the color of the winning dog. He did not seek a bulky dog, infact a bulky APBT was a LOSING APBT, therefore would not have been bred. BULLY breeders can do whatever they like. What they CANNOT ethically do is claim that their dogs are another "type" of pit bull or dual register them. They need to stop mucking up hundreds of years of breeding. They cannot meddle with an animal who was forged into a breed in a long-closed pit. Whatever thugs do on the street nowadays has nothing to do with what the gentlemen farmers in this country did in the 18th and 19th century, and most of their toughness is in APPEARANCE only. They seem to be seeking a dog who appears tougher. And what we are concerned with here is not only celebrating the history of the APBT, but seeking to raise awareness of how wonderful these dogs are to PEOPLE. They are not personal protection dogs or "tough" dogs when it comes to menacing humans. A dog who did this in the old days would have been SHOT. We are seeking to find a way to make these dogs more adoptable to the general AWARE public. People are confusing "bullies" for my breed. It would take a blind deaf idiot not to think that bullies are appealing to people looking for a tougher dog. A few clicks on the hip-hop fueled "breeder" websites that abound on the web is only ONE indication of this ridiculous image fascination. This turns off many family people and authority figures, who are now literally slaughtering pit bulls all over this country on the misinformation that they are the gangster's favorite dog and they are dangerous to humans. So please, create whatever you must, but let it be known from day one that your dog is NOT a pit bull anymore than it is a German Shepard or a Boxer. Because it is NOT. In any stretch of the imagination. I don't want to google pit bull one more time and come across a website with some mixed breed dog weighing in at over 100 pounds.
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 25, 2008 21:22:19 GMT -5
sorry.... i am getting a little sick at the fate of all these pitbulls because of people's quest for a more gangster image. Just watched a video that demonstrated euthanasia and the gas chamber and dog bodies being dumped into a dumpster. Mandatory viewing for anyone thinking of breeding. And people mixing up these dogs is causing more death. And as we mix the pit bull with other breeds, does ANYONE care that the pit bull was also bred for total human submission? What is the influence of American Bulldog, Mastiff and other breeds on THAT?
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