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Post by boneyardbullies on Apr 27, 2008 20:46:31 GMT -5
I am curious what UKC titles she holds, since you said she is titled. Registration is NOT a title, it is a birth certificate. A title is achieved based on an accumulation of show/work ring wins.
Reread what I wrote! Also, I do not have a SINGLE ADBA dog in my yard. Every dog in my yard or has been in my yard or breeding program was either an AKC registered AmStaff or UKC registered APBT. I didn't say she had a confirmation title, I said if I would have shown I will tell you she would have. How do I know that? SHOW EXPERIENCE!
Have you ever handled a dog in the ring? I have! It's just funny that you are comparing an ADBA show confirmation dog to a dog that was bred to be a UKC show dog. Once again, your taking your OPINION and PERCEPTION of what YOU think is the ideal pitbull and putting on what "THE STANDARD" should be. Go back and look at actual AKC and UKC Champion APBT and you will learn your way off base here.
This leads me to question YOUR knowledge and ethics. You have not stated one fact! You say our dogs are too heavy? I show you 92 pound UKC CH dogs! You say there muzzles are too short? I show you GR CH AKC and UKC dogs with the same headpieces! It just never seems to amaze me how you have no evidence to come back. SHOW ME IN THE UKC OR AKC STANDARDS WHERE IT SAYS YOU CANT HAVE A DOG OVER 70 POUNDS? Simply put, you can't!
I don't respect your opinion because you don't have ANY actual evidence to back it up. I meant your flawed DNA analogy and then you turn it to an issue of pet quality animals. Sidestepping even more from you!
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 28, 2008 10:04:44 GMT -5
What's the irony? Simba's pedigree is full of Gaff stuff. ;D I'm talking straight White Rock dogs, here. White Rock is a very well known, respected kennel. To get an idea of the sort of AmStaffs they produce, you can visit their website: www.whiterockkennel.com/ Go ahead and compare them to Gaff - they are two completely different "styles" of AmStaff. You can see for yourself the weights on the WR dogs on the website. My dog is from White Rock lines (top side), but weighs 70+ lbs. The breeder wasn't going for that, he just popped out that way. Ah, such is the life of a breeder. This is my dog's papa by the way: royalcourtamstaffs.com/dallas.htmI'm honestly not sure of his weight, but I'm going to guesstimate in the low 60s.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 28, 2008 10:09:04 GMT -5
Point out one dog I have posted who have been awarded levels of merit as American Bullies and tell me how they are not in confirmation standards of the APBT? Even Mary said the breed standards were plagerized? Er? ??? This point still hasn't been addressed, BTW ;D
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 28, 2008 13:23:40 GMT -5
neither has my question , which is all i keep asking, which keeps getting darted around:
WHY breed dogs that are outside the standard for a pit bull??
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 28, 2008 13:25:30 GMT -5
She is still to this day UKC and ABKC registered and deserving of both titles.
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 28, 2008 13:26:58 GMT -5
all i asked was what titles?? b/c being registered is not titles. I'm just curious.
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 28, 2008 13:30:04 GMT -5
and i just pulled this out of the UKC standard:
Height and Weight
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The American Pit Bull Terrier must be both powerful and agile so actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds. Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy.
I would say 100-130 lbs is massive, and it is 2x what a pit bull should be. "over the weight" is like 71 lbs, not 130. So again, WHY breed for that massive size???
WHY?
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 28, 2008 13:41:09 GMT -5
No one who understands/knows the breed thinks that a massive, mastiff-like dog that weighs 100 lbs is correct. I think that the AmBully people specifically are looking to create their own 'version' of the Pit Bull, which for a variety of reasons is disturbing to me, but I don't want to keep saying the same thing over and over again.
If you want a comparison, and an interesting look at the development of a breed that was based off of a well-known, established breed, look into the history of the Shiloh Shepherd. The creator of the Shiloh wanted a bigger dog with a calmer disposition (sounds like that's what the Bully people are after?), and also wanted to improve upon the health of the German Shepherd (bad hips run rampant in the breed, for instance). There were and are VERY strict guidelines for breeding and a carefully created standard, breed club and registry that protects the integrity of the breed (actually, it is a 'breed-in-progress' - and has been for 2+ decades now! Breeds aren't created over night!!!). The creation of the Shiloh is an example of a very careful, systematic breeding program to create a new breed or version, and how truly difficult it is to work to create a new breed the founder can be proud of. It's way more than just taking a breed you like, focusing on certain traits, and then breeding like crazy to get lots of those dogs with similar traits.
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 28, 2008 13:53:01 GMT -5
I can't keep saying it anymore. I've asked the same question in about 10 posts with NO answer, a simple WHY. I'm going to check out the Shiloh Shepard just to see what they did.
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 28, 2008 14:12:52 GMT -5
OMG now Dave Wilson is trying to say that the APBT is the "mixed breed" dog, crossed with labradors and other breeds which make it more aggressive, and that the American Bully is the original dog.... WTF? He's running around saying that pit bulls attack PEOPLE because of fighting ancestry and that people who like the look should buy a Bully instead... He was spewing this nonsense off at a "back to bullies" convention and NO ONE was there to correct him or even produce a HISTORY BOOK. So what's the goal now for Mr. Wilson? To jump on the BSL bandwagon to ensure Bully sales to people who want, but would be unable to get, a pit bull? This is just SOOOO shot out. I cannot even believe I was sitting here trying to rationally figure these people out. There's some disassociation with REALITY going on here. I cannot believe that someone who would so REWRITE HISTORY and deliberately twist facts and truth in order to shamelessly promote his work gives one DAMN about the dogs. I can't even argue with these people anymore. We're not even on the same PLANET.
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Post by boneyardbullies on Apr 28, 2008 15:35:18 GMT -5
all i asked was what titles?? b/c being registered is not titles. I'm just curious. I apologize, maybe I was unclear of what I meant by that. if you read the whole post I meant if she was shown in both the UKC & ABKC ring she confirmationally would have CH and would be deserving of both titles. I was referring to this comment I made. "From what I know now I will tell you she would have championed with ease."Your still not listening. You tell me my dogs are beyong the standard. I tell you they are not, and I know this because I HAVE SHOWN them. "The American Pit Bull Terrier must be both powerful and agile so actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds. Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy. "[/b] Like I said, I have personally seen 92 pound UKC CH and you cannot argue that fact with me. Call it whatever you want, I have still stated the fact. I have seen 120 pound pitbulls and I do not condone that. They are call their dogs whatever they want and it still doesn't mean that the BULLY WORLD thinks it's ok. No dog to date that big has ever been accepted in the ABKC show ring, so your not proving anything! "So again, WHY breed for that massive size??? OPEN YOUR EARS!!!!! NO QUALITY ABKC BREEDER IS BREEDING FOR DOGS THAT BIG. www.eliteedgeworld.com are the most direct breeders of Razors Edge dogs and it would be hard to find a dog on their yards that big. 100 pound dogs are big and uncommon. So stop asking WHY to an question is outside the true bully spectrum. "Breeds aren't created over night!!![/i] That is a very true statement and there is no arguing with that! Dave Wilson and others have devoted almost 20 years of breeding to get the style and look they are looking for.
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trent
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Post by trent on Apr 28, 2008 16:30:33 GMT -5
well just stick to the bully's cause i dont think you gonna win over any fans here with your UGLY, UNPROPORTIONED DOGS! I'd like to see one of those fat ass mutts bay a wildhog or be a catch dog in the field!!!
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 28, 2008 16:52:06 GMT -5
And Dave Wilson is showing himself to be a liar and a creep.
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 28, 2008 16:52:47 GMT -5
and it says right in the forum rules that we are here to talk about the APBT and do not condone this, so this is pretty much a dead issue.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 28, 2008 17:15:56 GMT -5
well just stick to the bully's cause i dont think you gonna win over any fans here with your UGLY, UNPROPORTIONED DOGS! I'd like to see one of those fat ass mutts bay a wildhog or be a catch dog in the field!!! Um, I'll tell you one more time - POLITENESS, PLEASE!!!!!! I really cannot STAND namecalling and rudeness. I have no problem deleting members who cannot be civilized. Thanks ;D
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 28, 2008 17:53:10 GMT -5
"The American Pit Bull Terrier must be both powerful and agile so actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds. Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy. " [/b][/quote] One of my biggest problems with the standards is that there is no size DQ!!! I think if the writers of these standards could have predicted what is being passed off as "correct" nowadays in this breed they would have added a DQ or two. Another thing to consider, the standards are GUIDELINES. With the UKC standard mentioning the weights it does, you'd HAVE TO ASSUME that the breed is MEDIUM in size. And shouldn't weigh 100 pounds. This breed is balanced....and athletic, and shouldn't look like mastiffs or heavy bulldogs. Bully Pit Bull breeders do not seem to show care or concern for breed TYPE. They breed heavy and massive dogs, and then point to the standard, "Look, it doesn't say you can't have 100 lb dogs!!!" Breed standards are guidelines but without really understanding your breed and KNOWING what it should look like, knowing it's history and purpose, and knowing what TYPE is, you will have a hard time reading JUST the standard and following its guidelines and creating the perfect specimen of the breed.
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Post by boneyardbullies on Apr 28, 2008 19:56:27 GMT -5
"The American Pit Bull Terrier must be both powerful and agile so actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds. Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy. " [/b][/quote] One of my biggest problems with the standards is that there is no size DQ!!! I think if the writers of these standards could have predicted what is being passed off as "correct" nowadays in this breed they would have added a DQ or two. Another thing to consider, the standards are GUIDELINES. With the UKC standard mentioning the weights it does, you'd HAVE TO ASSUME that the breed is MEDIUM in size. And shouldn't weigh 100 pounds. This breed is balanced....and athletic, and shouldn't look like mastiffs or heavy bulldogs. Bully Pit Bull breeders do not seem to show care or concern for breed TYPE. They breed heavy and massive dogs, and then point to the standard, "Look, it doesn't say you can't have 100 lb dogs!!!" Breed standards are guidelines but without really understanding your breed and KNOWING what it should look like, knowing it's history and purpose, and knowing what TYPE is, you will have a hard time reading JUST the standard and following its guidelines and creating the perfect specimen of the breed.[/quote] See I absolutely agree with what you are saying. There are people who abuse the idea that the framers of the breed left holes for size out. I and the other bully style breeders who actually excel in the bully community have the same beliefs. We are on the same side! Stuff like this is not exceptable to me or any other legit breeder! Faults are faults and I am sure you can understand my position on this. Please do not think I am defending the position of people who have breed practices like this, because I do not condone it at all. I want to better serve the breed and wish people breeding for their income or fad would go away. Just because my style of pitbull is a little more rugged looking than what you normally see from ADBA dogs does not mean I am wrong for my taste bullymommy. as far as the forum rules, Mary has made it quite clear of her position of the "bully movement" but in no way have I broken any forum rules and she has welcomed me to add to this forum. ;D
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Post by boneyardbullies on Apr 28, 2008 20:08:57 GMT -5
What's the irony? Simba's pedigree is full of Gaff stuff. ;D I'm talking straight White Rock dogs, here. White Rock is a very well known, respected kennel. To get an idea of the sort of AmStaffs they produce, you can visit their website: www.whiterockkennel.com/ Go ahead and compare them to Gaff - they are two completely different "styles" of AmStaff. You can see for yourself the weights on the WR dogs on the website. My dog is from White Rock lines (top side), but weighs 70+ lbs. The breeder wasn't going for that, he just popped out that way. Ah, such is the life of a breeder. This is my dog's papa by the way: royalcourtamstaffs.com/dallas.htmI'm honestly not sure of his weight, but I'm going to guesstimate in the low 60s. 3rd generation of Simba's pedigree you will see the beloved Bomber! LOL Actually Simba's pedigree is not considered all Gaff. Pam produced Simba but she did not own Cold Shot who is a Perdue dog, which is the same bloodline that is partially behind Razors Edge. (in fact Perdue's Blaze of Glory was bred to Benmar's Macho of Roadhouse and produced GRCH Perdue's Razors Edge Dinero who produced GR CH R.E. Takin A Gamble) His pedigree is mostly Sierra and Whiterock and Ruffian if you really look at it. ;D See these dogs go right back to the Ruffian, WhiteRock, Sierra bloodlines. Alot of breeders are playing with dogs that have only been around the last five years and don't know the history. I guess I am not your average bear when it comes to that. But to call these dogs less
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trent
New Member
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Post by trent on Apr 28, 2008 20:13:21 GMT -5
Ok. I apologize. I would still like to hear Mr. Dave Wilson's theory on how his dogs would preform in workin type conditions, or are they merely fashable lap dogs? Im just trying to get some understanding on why these dogs are breed the way they are?
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 28, 2008 20:17:24 GMT -5
What's the irony? Simba's pedigree is full of Gaff stuff. ;D I'm talking straight White Rock dogs, here. White Rock is a very well known, respected kennel. To get an idea of the sort of AmStaffs they produce, you can visit their website: www.whiterockkennel.com/ Go ahead and compare them to Gaff - they are two completely different "styles" of AmStaff. You can see for yourself the weights on the WR dogs on the website. My dog is from White Rock lines (top side), but weighs 70+ lbs. The breeder wasn't going for that, he just popped out that way. Ah, such is the life of a breeder. This is my dog's papa by the way: royalcourtamstaffs.com/dallas.htmI'm honestly not sure of his weight, but I'm going to guesstimate in the low 60s. 3rd generation of Simba's pedigree you will see the beloved Bomber! LOL Actually Simba's pedigree is not considered all Gaff. Pam produced Simba but she did not own Cold Shot who is a Perdue dog, which is the same bloodline that is partially behind Razors Edge. (in fact Perdue's Blaze of Glory was bred to Benmar's Macho of Roadhouse and produced GRCH Perdue's Razors Edge Dinero who produced GR CH R.E. Takin A Gamble) His pedigree is mostly Sierra and Whiterock and Ruffian if you really look at it. ;D See these dogs go right back to the Ruffian, WhiteRock, Sierra bloodlines. Alot of breeders are playing with dogs that have only been around the last five years and don't know the history. I guess I am not your average bear when it comes to that. But to call these dogs less I'm not really sure what your point is, Devin? I never said Simba was all Gaff.....I mean, I don't know how I could with WR in the first 3 - 5 generations. The bottom line is Gaff has a specific bloodline - it's not WR, it's Gaff. I think it would be difficult to confuse the two bloodlines based on looks. Personally I'd never obtain a Gaff dog - nothing against Gaff, I just prefer a dog that is more 'traditional' in size. I'd take a dog from White Rock in a second.
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