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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 12, 2013 12:37:10 GMT -5
ETA: PLEASE keep this discussion CIVIL AND POLITE. NO attacks on people, discuss issues, not personalities.
I will shut this thread down immediately - no second chances. We've been having some really good discussion here lately, but I wanted to make a new thread and really dig into some things. Ya know, the hot stuff that tends to cause people to butt heads. (And become buttheads  ) Let's keep it civil, real, respectful, and keep in mind that the goal is we should all be working together. Let's work to bridge the gap! Current issues on the table: *VISUAL BREED ID *Pit Bull vs "pit bull type dog" *Breed as a concept vs a reality *Advocates who say, "No such thing as breed/'pit bull type dog' traits", while extolling the virtues of the breed ('nanny dog', military mascot, how sweet they are, etc.) Ok let's go!  
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 12, 2013 16:47:47 GMT -5
I don't want to bore people and repeat myself, but I wouldn't have such a problem with visually IDing anything if people didn't steadfast associate behavior with appearance. If you look at a bunch of breed descriptions, they overlap so much from breed to breed to breed, they are not unique characteristics or breed specific. If I take descriptions and posted them up and had people guess which breed was being described, it’s pretty freaking hard! It’s EASIER of you have a dog in front of you and can see how they behave and what they look like for you to surmise what their breed is.
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For example, now don't CHEAT!!!! lol But what breed of dog is this description: The ??? is a big, bold dog with a distinctly powerful appearance: a large head in contrast to small, triangular eyes; and a confident, rugged stance. The mere presence of a powerful ??? serves as a deterrent to most who would cause trouble.
This breed is renowned for unwavering loyalty to his owners, and he can be surprisingly sweet and affectionate with family members. Imagine a loving protector who will follow you from room to room, whose entire mission in life seems to be simply to serve you.
The ??? is courageous, a natural guardian of his family. Stubborn and willful, he won't back down from a challenge. He doesn't usually bark unless there is a good reason, but he is vocal, making amusing grunts, moans, and mumbles. Some owners says the ??? mutters under his breath and seems to be talking to himself, while others say the ??? offers his opinion on all matters, from how to load the dishwasher to when the children should be put to bed.
While these charming "talking" traits are exhibited to family, the ??? is often aloof and silent with visitors. He's naturally wary of strangers, though he will be welcoming enough to a houseguest as long as his owners are home.
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Or course there are SOME things that ARE specific in regards to breed. A game dog is very rare. When it was legal people would try and fail all the time to have their dog prove they were game. To me dog aggression and having a Game dog are 2 way different things. I think LOTS of breeds are known for Dog Aggression. I think ANY dog can have prey or animals aggression if in the right circumstance. Since shelters and rescues are filled with BYB dogs who breed to anything for any reason and winding up in shelters because a reputable breeder would not allow their offspring to ever go to a shelter before taking their dog back to their own yard. I am not naive, I know “it” still happens, and it makes me very sad, but for argument sake the majority of people who breed pit bulls are NOT doing it in hopes of matching dogs. They are not TRYING to get the most game dog they have ever seen. They are doing it because they like a blue dog, because they like Fido’s temperament and want one JUST like Fido and are not realizing most litters take after grandsire and dams not their parents. Then breed their dog to anyone who is willing to let them instead of looking at the health and history of the dogs. Ugh Don’t get me STARTED on the American Bully. SOOOOO many beautiful dogs are ruined by the exotic movement it really makes me sad. They don’t care about health, and since most dogs don’t live over a few years, they can just get another one. Those are the dogs that are being lumped with the pit bull and it makes me very sad.
In reality I think breed is only good for someone who is willing to pay money to ensure they know what they are getting. Anyone who wants a pet, and NEEDS to know what breed they have blown my mind. Why adopt then? There will never be a guarantee and if that’s what you want, go for it! If it’s so important to you to know what breed you have to try and assume anyone can predict behavior’s based off one breeding. You can assume behavior and if one of the 10 born have that, how do you explain the other 9?
The only reason I was convinced breed and behavior have no merit was seeing an repeat breeding of some beautiful dogs. Same EVERYTHING, season, heat, location except 2 years apart. The offspring of the 2 litters were NOTHING at all alike. Not just size, but color and attitude! TOTALLY different from pup to pup and littler to litter. That helped me see its much more than just what breed a dog is. Just like with humans, I maybe Irish, but can I drink you under the table? HELL NO I am a light weight. BUT My sister can and will last til 5am Why does it have to be so different in dogs? They have WAY MORE genes than humans, and think about how different they all are.
I like bully breeds. I don’t like pit bull type (but have used it on occasion) All the dogs people incorrectly label as pit bulls have bull dog in them in some form another, hence why I like bully breeds. But I also call them bull dogs or mutts. Mutt because one definition of the word means indeterminate ie unknown, which is exactly what my dog is. That rubs some people the wrong way cause they feel mutt means a mix only and calling a dog a mutt means you KNOW its mixed, what if it isn’t mixed!?
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Post by emilys on Apr 12, 2013 19:29:48 GMT -5
certain breeds have a tendency to display certain behaviors.
Have you seen a border collie work sheep?. It's not that OTHER individuals of other breeds don't have "eye".. but no other breed has it to the degree and consistency that a b.c. does. Not even the closely related herding breeds.
Have you ever seen a boxer play? It's not that other individuals of other breeds don't "box"... but. well you get my drift.
Are breeds identified by appearance?
Yes, of course, but not by ONE aspect of appearance. So there's no correlation between a slinky-shaped body and "eye" any more than there's a correlation between head shape and "aggression".
Many behaviors are pretty generic.. almost all dogs will retrieve, will kill small critters, will do "whatever". A breed is defined by a combination of aspects of appearance/structure/movement/behavior.
Again, you are proposing red herrings to deny breed reality.
No breeder, EVER, has proclaimed that a repeat breeding will produce the exact same results.
BTW, it's certainly NOT true that "all the dogs" incorrectly labeled a pit bulls have bull dog in them. A world famous agility instructor I studied under (whom you would expect to know something about dog breeds) begged me to help find a home for an awesome "pit bull" agility prospect. She sent me a video: IMO the dog was a greyhound/Tervuren or Malinois mix. It had NOTHING bulldoggy or pitbullish about it. People who have gone down "pit bull" death row in Denver assert that a large proportion of the dogs are Lab mixes or other mixes that that have little apparent APBT component.
I doubt the bulldog people (either the American bulldog or the English bulldog) appreciate their breed's name applied to all those mutts...
Why don't we just call mixed breed dogs.... mixed breed dogs?
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 12, 2013 19:56:55 GMT -5
bull dog as in generic, no Johnson type or Alpha Blue but both those have the ancestry of old bull dogs, (not Olde English Bull Dogs, although they have some too but that's not what I meant) What I meant was the common breeds that are associated, not in regards to mixes but actual breeds Dogo, Presa, Am Bully all the breeds that are lumped have bull dog. But very true, some dogs could get lumped and don't have bull dog just have the square head and a short coat and get the label bull dog or not. Although my guess would the mix DID have some bull dog even it it was't a APBT at some point.
To clarify I didn't mean people claim the exact same results, I meant a lot of people claim similar traits will appear. I have heard LOTS of people say the aggression is a trait that has been breed in years and years and can't be bred out. I'm not convinced that's always the case, which is why its more dog vs dog, not breed vs breed. For example a Border Collie isn't the only herding dog out there, that's not really unique to them if another breed can learn and herd as well. So although they maybe known for it, its not a unique trait.
I agree, I wish shelters and rescues would stop trying to guess a breed and just have the tag say Medium size black dog instead of lab mix. I know Petfinder doesn't allow it, but people feel they MUST need know what breed for some reason...
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Post by seamonkey on Apr 12, 2013 21:07:26 GMT -5
I don't know, I think some dogs, you need to know what you are getting into. Lucy, my 13 year old that passed, her dad was a purebred Akita and her mom was a mix of god knows what but she had several Akita traits and could be a handful sometimes. George, my other dog, is a dauchshund designer hybrid weird looking thing I adopted a few years ago and he has a lot of dauchshund behaviors
Matilda, the puppy I adopted in December, is some sort of Pit bull mix, but she looks a lot like a pit bull, so I'm on here learning everything I can since I don't know what else she is mixed with
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 12, 2013 22:03:14 GMT -5
I don't know, I think some dogs, you need to know what you are getting into. Lucy, my 13 year old that passed, her dad was a purebred Akita and her mom was a mix of god knows what but she had several Akita traits and could be a handful sometimes. George, my other dog, is a dauchshund designer hybrid weird looking thing I adopted a few years ago and he has a lot of dauchshund behaviors Matilda, the puppy I adopted in December, is some sort of Pit bull mix, but she looks a lot like a pit bull, so I'm on here learning everything I can since I don't know what else she is mixed with Did you recognize the Description I posted above? Its typical traits of an Akita |
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Post by suziriot on Apr 13, 2013 0:17:49 GMT -5
Such a great thread idea Mary. Nothing to contribute for now, but I'm loving reading the discussion. |
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Post by seamonkey on Apr 13, 2013 10:34:01 GMT -5
I don't know, I think some dogs, you need to know what you are getting into. Lucy, my 13 year old that passed, her dad was a purebred Akita and her mom was a mix of god knows what but she had several Akita traits and could be a handful sometimes. George, my other dog, is a dauchshund designer hybrid weird looking thing I adopted a few years ago and he has a lot of dauchshund behaviors Matilda, the puppy I adopted in December, is some sort of Pit bull mix, but she looks a lot like a pit bull, so I'm on here learning everything I can since I don't know what else she is mixed with Did you recognize the Description I posted above? Its typical traits of an Akita lol, yes, I did, though the "entire mission in life is to serve you" was NOT Lucy at all. They should also add "has freakishly long memory for people and animals they think have wronged them". My friend with Akitas and Shiba's say the exact same thing! |
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 13, 2013 12:54:14 GMT -5
That's awesome!!
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 13, 2013 16:16:47 GMT -5
I have not read through the thread yet, this is not targeted at anyone, I'm just putting my mod hat on for a second:
PLEASE keep this discussion CIVIL AND POLITE. NO attacks on people - discuss issues, not personalities.
I will shut this thread down immediately - no second chances.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 13, 2013 16:48:22 GMT -5
I will probably not have time to return to this thread until Monday. Just an FYI. Can't wait to get into the conversation! Thanks for contributing, ya'll! |
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Post by Kim Wolf on Apr 13, 2013 17:42:00 GMT -5
Hi, everyone! My name is Kim Wolf. I already know some of you, others I haven't met before. I'm very grateful that Mary invited me to join this forum, and thank you all for welcoming me. I'll start by being blunt: I know I'm not well liked by some of you. I hope this can be a place to clarify some of the issues and move things forward. I enjoy frank discussions, even if they're tough topics, and I suspect I'm in good company. I hope I can clarify some things that people think I've said/believe/done, as it's clear that there's a lot of miscommunication -- or maybe 'lack of communication' is a better way of putting it. I also hope to shed light on my own "evolution" (for lack of a better word) on this topic, since my own views have changed as I've been exposed to various organizations, information, experiences, and so forth. Again, thanks for the opportunity to be here. For those I don't know yet, these are my dogs. The one in the top middle is Sarge and he's no longer alive, but the rest of them are still going strong.  |
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 13, 2013 17:45:02 GMT -5
Hey Kim!!! Glad you are here. Yay! |
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 13, 2013 17:49:31 GMT -5
Welcome aboard Kim!
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Post by Kim Wolf on Apr 13, 2013 17:58:56 GMT -5
Thanks! I'm also very interested in getting the group's input for a presentation I've been asked to give at HSUS Expo next month, "Moving Beyond Breed": www.animalsheltering.org/training-events/expo/expo-2013-schedule/expo-schedule-saturday.htmlThey didn't want this to be about pit bulls, necessarily, but it's obviously going to be a large part. But keep in mind that the bigger goal is to get animal welfare and sheltering folks to be thinking about breed in the context of companion animals, both in shelters and in the community. So....fire away! I'm all ears. Note: when HSUS asked me to do this, they contacted me as an individual, not as a representative of any organization. I'm listed on the program as being with my current employer -- University of Florida College of Vet Med, Maddie's Shelter Medicine Program (so two orgs, technically). But I have free reign to create the content. |
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 13, 2013 18:46:02 GMT -5
Will write more when I get the chance but in essence I think there needs to be a balance. I think it is an important to recognize each dog as an individual while keeping breed in mind. I have seen backlash by being too much over breed but also quite frequently by completely ignoring breed especially with regards to pit bulls.
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ames
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Post by ames on Apr 13, 2013 21:20:26 GMT -5
Will write more when I get the chance but in essence I think there needs to be a balance. I think it is an important to recognize each dog as an individual while keeping breed in mind. I have seen backlash by being too much over breed but also quite frequently by completely ignoring breed especially with regards to pit bulls. I Hear you on this. But I really try to focus on a dog being and individual. You can always assume but I'm usually pleasantly surprised. There has to be a happy Medium. Glad to see you on here Kim! Can't wait for your input into the discussion. **Below is from my intro thread. Just moving it here to stop that one, as suggested** YES!!! Ditto times 1 million. Agree. I am also against accepting definitions used by out allies if I believe they are wrong or detrimental. I don't agree and use the term either if I can help it. I only use pit bull to mean APBT personally but can't all the time, especially when I know I'm talking to people who believe pit bull is a type and don't get it's a nickname for the APBT. I'm just saying in reality it can't be avoided at this time because of BSL/BDL and that's what I research and read about all day lol And very true about the DNA results Mary, when you said they could potentially being used against us. I asked the city councilor tying to get BSL passed in Boston if every do should be DNA tested, and he realized they don't test for the APBT what percent is acceptable. He said no percent would be acceptable. He also tried to compare pit bull regulations to chickens and alligators being restricted, grrrrrrr. He doesn't get it. So I understand how they could be used against us. I have never heard that wisdom panels don't test for APBT because if BSL. I had heard it was because there were so many varying bloodlines they just aren't there yet. Who knows, but that's an interesting thought. Then I doubt any company would pass up THAT much money if they HAD the technology to do it. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 15, 2013 7:28:27 GMT -5
I don't want to bore people and repeat myself, but I wouldn't have such a problem with visually IDing anything if people didn't steadfast associate behavior with appearance. If you look at a bunch of breed descriptions, they overlap so much from breed to breed to breed, they are not unique characteristics or breed specific. If I take descriptions and posted them up and had people guess which breed was being described, it’s pretty freaking hard! It’s EASIER of you have a dog in front of you and can see how they behave and what they look like for you to surmise what their breed is. But again, you are a) talking about someone who has misidentified a dog's breed, and b) assuming just because so-and-so cannot ID a dog's breed, NO one can. Just because the Boxer or Boxer mix gets mis-ID'd as a Pit Bull, it doesn't mean that I can't pull a Pit Bull out of a shelter environment assuming it is a Pit Bull and then educate potential adopters on possible Pit Bull temperament traits (and be able to largely predict those traits esp. after I've observed the dog in foster care for the 30+ days we ALWAYS keep dogs in care - although I MUST state that just because you have a Pit Bull in foster care and haven't observed certain behaviors, it doesn't mean you won't ever see those behaviors. Educating adopters on what "might" happen is also extremely important. I'd never ever place a Pit Bull in a home that wasn't prepared to deal with dog-directed aggression). ALSO, and this is a big one - since BSL covers dogs that merely LOOK like Pit Bulls but AREN'T necessarily Pit Bulls, if you have a Pit Bull-ish looking dog, and are not really sure what it is, best to err on the side of caution and tell the adopter to be careful about leaving your dog unattended with other dogs, to stay away from off-leash public dog parks, etc. IOW, to avoid being targeted by laws based off how your dog looks. The standard you quoted doesn't even REMOTELY sound like typical Pit Bull temperament. Aside from the fact that I know the AST standard practically by heart, and APBT standards pretty well and KNOW this isn't a Pit Bull standard (AKC, UKC or ADBA), the dog's described temperament would only sound like a Pit Bull to someone who has a commonly mistaken view of the breed (loyal, protective, etc), and really doesn't know Pit Bulls at all. Again, just because some people don't know, doesn't mean NO ONE knows. But you are saying 2 seperate things here: 1) You think breed is only good for someone willing to pay money (I'm assuming you mean to a good breeder).... ....and 2) that there is sooo much variation within a litter that it's pointless to expect any pup from any litter to act any breed-specific way. So what it sounds like to me is that you do not have a belief in the concept of purebred dogs and you do not believe selective breeding has any effect on temperament. You do not believe in purebred rescue. You think if someone has an interest in a specific breed and think that breed's temperament is a good match, they should forego breed specific rescue and just go to a breeder? Of course, no one said environment doesn't effect behavior. It most certainly does. But, you cannot compare human nationalities to dog breeds. Irish people are not/were not selectively breed for heavy drinking.  I like the term "bull breed" - that is really the correct term. But here I'm confused because if you think breed is pointless, why do you use the word breed in your descriptive term (and, BTW, it still sounds like you are using visual ID to make certain assumptions - like, dog looks like such-and-such because of a blocky head, etc, so it must be a 'bully breed')? Thanks, Ames! |
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 15, 2013 8:07:44 GMT -5
I have never heard that wisdom panels don't test for APBT because if BSL. I had heard it was because there were so many varying bloodlines they just aren't there yet. Who knows, but that's an interesting thought. Then I doubt any company would pass up THAT much money if they HAD the technology to do it. What a load of BS. There is a wide variety of bloodlines in MANY working dogs: Aussies, BCs, GSDs, just to name a few. I'm not sure if Wisdom specifically used the BSL excuse, and I cannot remember which DNA test specifically used it. I'll have to go see if I can dig up the info. If Wisdom is saying that they cannot test APBTs because of all the varying bloodlines - sorry, that's BS. Especially when they test ASTs and SBTs.  |
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Post by michele5611 on Apr 15, 2013 8:13:13 GMT -5
www.wisdompanel.com/why_test_your_dog/faqs/#79Does Wisdom Panel® Insights™ test for "Pit-bull?" The term "Pit-bull" does not refer to a single or recognized breed of dog, but rather to a genetically diverse group of breeds. Pit-bull type dogs have historically been bred by combining guarding type breeds with terriers for certain desired characteristics – and as such they may retain many genetic similarities to the likely progenitor breeds and other closely related breeds. Due to the genetic diversity of this group, we cannot build a DNA profile for the Pit-bull. If a Pit-bull type dog was tested, we might anticipate that Wisdom Panel Insights test detect and report moderate to Minor amounts of one or more distantly related breeds to those used to breed the dog, it is possible that one or more of the following breeds might be detected at moderate to Minor amounts: the American Staffordshire terrier, Boston terrier, Bull terrier, Staffordshire Bull terrier, Mastiff, Bullmastiff Boxer, Bulldog and various small terriers like the Parson Russell. These breeds would be detected because some markers in these breeds have genetic identity at a minority of the markers Wisdom Panel Insights test uses to the breeds in our database. Some local communities in the United States have put restrictions on Pit-bull ownership. Mars Veterinary™ encourages dog owners and care providers to be fully aware of their local laws, which vary across the country.
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) Let's keep it civil, real, respectful, and keep in mind that the goal is we should all be working together. Let's work to bridge the gap!
I look forward to learning much here