Do Pit Bulls Have a Propensity for Dog-Directed Aggression?

[Kim Wolf]

I'm curious about this statement: " It is mismanagement that is an increasing problem and a huge factor contributing to the large number of Pit Bull (and all dog) attacks on other members of their own species that are regularly appearing in papers across the country."

What stats are you drawing from to support that claim?

I'm not aware of any national database that tracks dog bites by breed. (I'm not aware of any reliable database that tracks dog-dog bites/attacks, either). The databases that do attempt to track bites by breed use the same flawed breed identifications as the media, and are not reliable.

As you often point out, many of the dogs that get labeled as pit bulls are not Pit Bulls (as you define them: APBTs).

[RealPitBull]

Remember: gameness isn't aggression! But in order to find out if a dog is game, the dog has to be willing to fight. A lot of game dogs from what I've read/been told, were pretty much chill with other dogs, or at least not reactive. They mainly showed aggression when confronting another dog in a pit - a high stress, do-or-die setting, where these dogs were basically conditioned by the environment to fight.

Believe me, I'm well aware that dogs will fight when not "trained/conditioned" but it just think it is important to find a balance and recognize that we can inadvertently sell the dogs short by insisting they are "genetically dog aggressive". That doesn't mean I think you should go take your "well raised from a puppy" Pit Bull to the dog park anytime soon.

Just putting some thoughts meandering through my head down in post form.

[RealPitBull]

Jul 2, 2013 15:29:01 GMT -5 Kim Wolf said:

I'm curious about this statement: " It is mismanagement that is an increasing problem and a huge factor contributing to the large number of Pit Bull (and all dog) attacks on other members of their own species that are regularly appearing in papers across the country."

What stats are you drawing from to support that claim?

I'm not aware of any national database that tracks dog bites by breed. (I'm not aware of any reliable database that tracks dog-dog bites/attacks, either). The databases that do attempt to track bites by breed use the same flawed breed identifications as the media, and are not reliable.

As you often point out, many of the dogs that get labeled as pit bulls are not Pit Bulls (as you define them: APBTs).

I'm speaking from my experience. Dog attacks don't happen in a vacuum - humans mismanage the situation, IME.

[Kim Wolf]

I completely agree with you that dog attacks don't happen in a vacuum. But I'm not aware of any stats that show dog attacks are increasing; if anything, they're on the decline in most places around the country. I'm wondering how anyone could know that Pit Bull (APBT) attacks, in particular, are increasing.

[perseus]

Remember: gameness isn't aggression!

Right and even dogs that display being "hot" (DA) may not ultimately display gameness in the end.
That's why your statement about mismanagement is so right on. Yes, these "exceptions" exists but when you take the larger body of evidence into account and then you choose to manage your dog in a way based on that then I daresay a lot these "incidents" are avoided.

[RealPitBull]

I never said they were increasing. I said there is a large number of attacks occurring. Mismanagement is an increasing problem as more and more people get these dogs with no clue as to how to properly handle them. That's the point I was trying to get across.

[maryellen]

i know that if a dog is continously picked on by another dog it will eventually attack that said dog.(case in point- aussie that attacked the gsd and got his ass whopped- he continuously harassed the gsd after one of the pack dogs died. he was always stopped by both owners, this time both dogs were in the barn and the aussie went after the gsd again and this time the gsd didnt turn tail, she fought back and hurt the aussie very good(no its not my dogs but one of my friends dogs who ALWAYS get into fights with each other....) so in this case the gsd who wasnt aggressive had had enough, and when the aussie started it again the gsd finished it.. . now, her dogs (used to be 4 but one got hit by a car and died) used to always get into fights with each other and she had numerous vet bills.. rufus, micromanaged by me for the past 11 years has gotten into ZERO fights with other dogs that required vet visits.. a few tiffs were with my bf's lab, but those were basically yelling matches by both of them with no blood drawn . i micromanage. my friend with her dogs doesnt manage her dogs like i do mine, so hers get into fights more often (plus they are farm dogs who are not living ona farm anymore fulltime so their energy is not being taken care of like it used to so they have more pent up energy)..

the last fight between my dogs was back in 2003- jesse and me and sonny were in a tight space(gsd and rottmix) and sonny ignored jesse's warning and jesse went after him, end result was sonnys ear was punctured. that was the only blood fight i had in 12 years , but again i micromanage.. i dont let my dogs pick on each other or new dogs as its not allowed.

so as far as environment that helps. (given the chance rufus would love to throw down with a dog and he is a mix and has never fought) so environment with him is out as he has never gotten into a real fight.. just a few yelling matches wth the female lab

i still feel that potential owners should know its genetic (only because there are trainers out there that say they can cure DA and you cant fix genetics you can only manage it)

sorry for debating but i had a boring day at work lol..

[perseus]

Jul 2, 2013 15:40:21 GMT -5 Kim Wolf said:

I completely agree with you that dog attacks don't happen in a vacuum. But I'm not aware of any stats that show dog attacks are increasing; if anything, they're on the decline in most places around the country. I'm wondering how anyone could know that Pit Bull (APBT) attacks, in particular, are increasing.

Kim i don't know about numbers but i bet the focus on the attacks is much more pronounced and there is more at stake now than ever.

[Kim Wolf]

Jul 2, 2013 15:56:13 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

I never said they were increasing. I said there is a large number of attacks occurring. Mismanagement is an increasing problem as more and more people get these dogs with no clue as to how to properly handle them. That's the point I was trying to get across.

Then I guess I'm not sure what stats you're referencing with regard to the "large number of attacks." However you define "large," I'm still not sure where those #s come from. First, dog attacks are on the decline in most places. Second, many of the dog attacks that do get reported/recorded are not tracked by breed; those that are don't use reliable breed identification measures. As you've said previously, many dogs that are not APBTs get reported as pit bulls (however defined).

As for mismanagement becoming an "increasing problem," that claim seems even harder to support, for the same reasons listed above. And since when have they increased? In the past year? Decade? What about the increase in the total population of APBTs? And dogs in general?

I agree with some of the other points you made in this blog post, but to say that "mismanagement is an increasing problem" with owners any breed, let alone APBTs in particular, is begging for the dogs and their owners to be targeted.

And in the absence of reliable stats to support any of these claims, we're left to argue in the weeds and debate anecdotes and opinions. We know where that approach has left us in the past.

[Kim Wolf]

Jul 2, 2013 15:59:04 GMT -5 perseus said:

Jul 2, 2013 15:40:21 GMT -5 Kim Wolf said:

I completely agree with you that dog attacks don't happen in a vacuum. But I'm not aware of any stats that show dog attacks are increasing; if anything, they're on the decline in most places around the country. I'm wondering how anyone could know that Pit Bull (APBT) attacks, in particular, are increasing.

Kim i don't know about numbers but i bet the focus on the attacks is much more pronounced and there is more at stake now than ever.

These are very bold statements, so I would hope that they're supported by reliable facts. Otherwise, we'll have to accept the pro-BSL folks' claims, which aren't based on reliable data either.

[RealPitBull]

I love a good debate, ME, you know that!

FWIW, the way I handle the "cure the behavior"-minded, is to tell them that a behavior cannot be UNlearned. Once a dog has aggressed, chances are there has been some environmental reinforcement that dog received for aggressing, and it's likely to aggress again. Even humans with bad habits who make a conscious effort to say, "I'll never do that again!" are no where near fail-proof. Now imagine dogs, who can't make such a decision.

[perseus]

Jul 2, 2013 16:09:14 GMT -5 Kim Wolf said:

Jul 2, 2013 15:59:04 GMT -5 perseus said:

Kim i don't know about numbers but i bet the focus on the attacks is much more pronounced and there is more at stake now than ever.

These are very bold statements, so I would hope that they're supported by reliable facts. Otherwise, we'll have to accept the pro-BSL folks' claims, which aren't based on reliable data either.

Bold, no not bold. Statement based on observable evidence. Are you saying there isn't more focus on "pitbulls" now than in previous history? I don't need a study to know that. To be honest I have no use for studies and stats beyond them being an interesting reference point. Statistic are often manipulated and depending upon how the data is filtered, can yield varying results.
No what I go by is decades of experience by people with the breed and to discredit that and to be derisive when referring to "anectdotes" is unwise imo. You want to really know about something you go to people who have spent their lives being devoted to that thing. Doesn't mean they are the final authority on every detail or that they can explain everything at a super technical level but they "know" it. So yes it does behoove people to really know their breed and to manage them accordingly instead of trying to deny what they are.

[Kim Wolf]

Jul 2, 2013 16:30:49 GMT -5 perseus said:

Jul 2, 2013 16:09:14 GMT -5 Kim Wolf said:

These are very bold statements, so I would hope that they're supported by reliable facts. Otherwise, we'll have to accept the pro-BSL folks' claims, which aren't based on reliable data either.

Bold, no not bold. Statement based on observable evidence. Are you saying there isn't more focus on "pitbulls" now than in previous history? I don't need a study to know that. To be honest I have no use for studies and stats beyond them being an interesting reference point. Statistic are often manipulated and depending upon how the data is filtered, can yield varying results.
No what I go by is decades of experience by people with the breed and to discredit that and to be derisive when referring to "anectdotes" is unwise imo. You want to really know about something you go to people who have spent their lives being devoted to that thing. Doesn't mean they are the final authority on every detail or that they can explain everything at a super technical level but they "know" it. So yes it does behoove people to really know their breed and to manage them accordingly instead of trying to deny what they are.

That's exactly what people say when claiming pit bulls are too dangerous to exist in society, despite all the evidence to the contrary: they just "know" it.

If an authority on Pit Bulls (i.e., the RPB website) references an "increase" in mismanagement of Pit Bulls around the country, then there better facts to back it up -- because that's an alarming cause for concern, and it will understandably be used to justify regulating the pit bull owners differently than other dogs to address the problem.

[Kim Wolf]

Just making sure we're on the same page. I'm not taking issue with any other part of the blog post, except for this line: "It is mismanagement that is an increasing problem and a huge factor contributing to the large number of Pit Bull (and all dog) attacks on other members of their own species that are regularly appearing in papers across the country."

[perseus]

insert quote here

That is not even remotely a fair comparison. If it wasn't obvious, what was meant by "know" is decades of knowledge based on hands on experience w a specific breed. Not pulling some "intuitive b.s." out of the air based on some manipulated statistics or media induced hysteria.

[Kim Wolf]

Jul 2, 2013 16:58:22 GMT -5 perseus said:

insert quote here

That is not even remotely a fair comparison. If it wasn't obvious, what was meant by "know" is decades of knowledge based on hands on experience w a specific breed. Not pulling some "intuitive b.s." out of the air based on some manipulated statistics or media induced hysteria.

I understand what you're saying. Do you see what my concerns are? I agree that the stats used by pro-BSL folks and the media are often manipulated. This website has done a great job of highlighting that and explaining why those stats are unreliable. For that reason, I would apply that scrutiny to the claim made in this post. There simply is no reliable source to show that there's a breed-specific increase in owner mismanagement of dogs.

[RealPitBull]

Yeah, I believe mismanagement is an increasing problem. Increasing as in more and more people owning this breed without knowing what they are doing - dogs in general for that matter. Sorry, I don't believe this breed is in great shape in this country, I believe a huge number of people who own them SHOULD NOT, and I believe there is a crisis. Maybe "numbers" don't give you cause for concern, but from where I'm standing and the hands on work I have done for so long with both the public and the dogs, I'm very concerned.

[michele5611]

Kim- speaking on behalf of myself and not RPB I believe pit bulls or any pit bull mix is more likely to be more dog sensitive then say Bichons. So with that being said mismanagement to me would be when a pit bull owner take their dog to a dog park and gets in a fight, or lets their pit bull off leash and it goes after another animal or doesn't crate and rotate a multi-dog household. I know you don't think they are any more dog sensitive than other breeds so I am assuming that the above things to you are just dog issues and not pit bull specific. While I understand the above situations could apply to any dog or breed I maintain that dog sensitivity is more prevalent in the APBT and like Mary said mismanagement of this breed has been and will continue to be a problem for this breed if people don't take the blinders off.

[Kim Wolf]

Jul 2, 2013 17:08:28 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

Yeah, I believe mismanagement is an increasing problem. Increasing as in more and more people owning this breed without knowing what they are doing - dogs in general for that matter. Sorry, I don't believe this breed is in great shape in this country, I believe a huge number of people who own them SHOULD NOT, and I believe there is a crisis. Maybe "numbers" don't give you cause for concern, but from where I'm standing and the hands on work I have done for so long with both the public and the dogs, I'm very concerned.

I understand the point you are trying to convey, but the way it's written paints a different picture -- and the statement could so easily be used to justify legislating Pit Bull owners differently.

One person mismanaging a dog is a problem and is cause for concern, no matter what breed it is. And it is especially alarming if it's the breed you advocate on behalf of and care deeply about.

But that's not the issue here (at least, not in the context I'm reading this post). The issue is that the blog makes a claim that would suggest Pit Bull owners are an increasing threat to public safety, and that's not founded on any reliable data. That claim can, and likely will, be used against Pit Bulls and their owners. When you speak on behalf of Pit Bulls everywhere, it can't be based solely on personal experiences; it has to be supported by facts. If there are facts that support the claim, then I genuinely would be interested in seeing them. It's just that the only places where I find those "facts" are sites like dogsbite.org.

It's a shame, because it wasn't the main point of the post, and it's not needed to support the other points. Like you said, Mary, even one person mismanaging a dog is enough cause for concern.

I understand what you mean when you say, "sorry, but I don't believe this breed is in great shape in this country" and "there is a crisis." But that is simply not how people (e.g., politicians) will view it if they're looking for information on whether or not Pit Bull owners need to be legislated different than other dog owners. And that's not even mentioning the pro-BSL camp who thrive on these types of soundbites.

[Kim Wolf]

Jul 2, 2013 17:17:43 GMT -5 michele5611 said:

Kim- speaking on behalf of myself and not RPB I believe pit bulls or any pit bull mix is more likely to be more dog sensitive then say Bichons. So with that being said mismanagement to me would be when a pit bull owner take their dog to a dog park and gets in a fight, or lets their pit bull off leash and it goes after another animal or doesn't crate and rotate a multi-dog household. I know you don't think they are any more dog sensitive than other breeds so I am assuming that the above things to you are just dog issues and not pit bull specific. While I understand the above situations could apply to any dog or breed I maintain that dog sensitivity is more prevalent in the APBT and like Mary said mismanagement of this breed has been and will continue to be a problem for this breed if people don't take the blinders off.

None of my concerns with this post are about dog-dog aggression, genetics, behavior, and so forth. I've also never said that pit bulls, or any breeds, are or are not "any more dog sensitive than other breeds."

But that's not what I'm talking about here anyway, and I would hate for that to distract from the point I'm trying to make.

I'm talking solely about the claim: "It is mismanagement that is an increasing problem and a huge factor contributing to the large number of Pit Bull (and all dog) attacks on other members of their own species that are regularly appearing in papers across the country."

This is not about having on blinders. This is about accuracy and reliability. And most of all, this is about how this claim will be used in other contexts to justify legislating Pit Bull owners differently.