Do Pit Bulls Have a Propensity for Dog-Directed Aggression?

[RealPitBull]

therealpitbullblog.blogspot.com/2013/07/do-pit-bulls-have-propensity-for-dog.html

[michele5611]

Couldn't have said it better myself and it goes without saying that I agree

[michele5611]

"No matter how often the chant of "Pit Bulls are no more dog-aggressive than any other breed!" is yelled from the rooftops, if irresponsible or naïve guardians are allowing their dogs to attack, injure and kill other dogs/animals, the chant will fall on deaf ears and the breed will continue to face outlaw status."

^A-to-the-Men Mary!!!

[RealPitBull]

I didn't even run the post past you first because I knew you would agree This is actually olllllld, I've been sitting on it for a year or two.

[michele5611]

Well you know this whole “debate” is one of my biggest pet peeves with the pinkers so of course I would be on board with it!

[perseus]

Knocked it the #*&@$ out of the park as always.

In this society where dogs are increasingly viewed as "protectors" of home and family or as cuddly objects that are akin to live stuffed animals and expected to get along with every animal that crosses their paths, the Pit Bull is left stuck in a misunderstood middle.

When kept by a person with the wherewithal for proper management, this breed can excel at many tasks despite any propensity for dog-aggression. And this propensity can be managed and handled so as to never cause any trouble for guardian, dog or other dogs. It is mismanagement that is an increasing problem and a huge factor contributing to the large number of Pit Bull (and all dog) attacks on other members of their own species that are regularly appearing in papers across the country.

^this!
gonna share this.

[RealPitBull]

^ thank you

[maryellen]

i like it.. (and as a side note, my friends aussie went after her bf's gsd and the gsd had to be pulled off tge aussie and the aussie had to go to the vet for his injuries....) so yea, any dog can show aggression..

the only part i am on the fence is this:

What I've observed in the breed is a high tendency to exhibit dog-directed aggression. Notice I say 'tendency to exhibit' - I am not calling the breed 'dog-aggressive', as I do not think there is such a thing as a 'dog-aggressive breed'. Dogs are not born with aggressive behavior - they learn it.

now how do you explain litters of apbt pups that literally want to attack their littermates? or pups who were born of hot/cold parents or hot/hot parents or cold/cold parents where part of the litter is VERY DA and part isnt.. how would you classify that then? since the pups didnt learn it once born would you say it could be genetic?

[RealPitBull]

I don't classify aggression as "genetic", mainly because that is not what the science teaches, but we all know some dogs are just "wired" badly. I think the litters of APBT pups that fight practically as soon as their eyes open are a good empirical example of aggression being more than just environment.

[maryellen]

but what about the ones who are DA? even when raised correctly, nature and nurture and you still get a dog that wants to throw down even if it never did?

sorry, just picking your brain on your blog- i really like it but i know some folks might question what i am asking lol

[maryellen]

crap gotta go back to work lunch is over:( ok be back later to see replies:)

[melonie]

This was a great time to post this, because I needed more fuel!
I've been trying to explain dog aggression to the workers at the local shelter since there are currently 3 lab mixes who are either DA or selective. I'm planning on going to the next board meeting to discuss a lot of the issues that I see...because their staff is so ill prepared to handle, understand, or deal with any dog with any behavior outside of couch potato.

[RealPitBull]

Jul 2, 2013 12:00:59 GMT -5 maryellen said:

but what about the ones who are DA? even when raised correctly, nature and nurture and you still get a dog that wants to throw down even if it never did?

sorry, just picking your brain on your blog- i really like it but i know some folks might question what i am asking lol

It's ok!

I tried to say dog-aggression can be breed-specific without outright SAYING it is genetic because as an org, I don't want us to be quoted as ever saying, "pit bulls are genetically dog-aggressive" (which often gets translated into "Pit Bulls are genetically aggressive"). But I try to be balanced and make sure people know they are likely to see it in their own dogs.

I said this:

"..science has pretty much come to the conclusion that behavior is an inextricable combination of nature and environmental learning. For a complex notion like aggression (which is not a single behavior but a suite of behaviors), there are no simple answers."

which mentions nature AND nature, and also this:

"I can't prove percentage-wise or point to a study that shows that Pit Bulls exhibit a higher rate of dog-directed aggression than all other breeds (although I do believe that they exhibit a higher rate than many other breeds). This is a breed, after all, that was carefully selectively bred specifically for dog on dog combat."

What I don't want to do is make blanket statements like, "Pit Bulls are definitely a dog-aggressive breed, they are born aggressive" when I have zero science/studies to back that up. There is no "aggression gene" in Pit Bulls that we know of, and at the end of the day, all we have to show that Pit Bulls in general tend to be dog-aggressive, is our own empirical evidence. Those of us who have spent a lot of time around Pit Bulls know how common dog-directed aggression is, it's seen as normal. A lot of people who have adopted a Pit Bull-mix or misidentified "pit bull" and only have experience with one or two soft dogs are going to say, "THAT'S CRAZY! MY DOG GETS ALONG WITH ALL DOGS!" That is THEIR experience, but we all know it's coming from very limited experience with dogs that aren't even actual APBT.

[maryellen]

ah gotcha now!!!

[maryellen]

ok, how about this. since we all know that genetics does play a part in a dogs makeup (and humans too) and science has somewhat proved that genetics does come into play, why not advise that genetics can be part of hereditary quirks etc... why sortof hide it ?

"I can't prove percentage-wise or point to a study that shows that Pit Bulls exhibit a higher rate of dog-directed aggression than all other breeds (although I do believe that they exhibit a higher rate than many other breeds). This is a breed, after all, that was carefully selectively bred specifically for dog on dog combat."

What I don't want to do is make blanket statements like, "Pit Bulls are definitely a dog-aggressive breed, they are born aggressive" when I have zero science/studies to back that up. There is no "aggression gene" in Pit Bulls that we know of, and at the end of the day, all we have to show that Pit Bulls in general tend to be dog-aggressive, is our own empirical evidence. Those of us who have spent a lot of time around Pit Bulls know how common dog-directed aggression is, it's seen as normal. A lot of people who have adopted a Pit Bull-mix or misidentified "pit bull" and only have experience with one or two soft dogs are going to say, "THAT'S CRAZY! MY DOG GETS ALONG WITH ALL DOGS!" That is THEIR experience, but we all know it's coming from very limited experience with dogs that aren't even actual APBT.

the only reason i am questioning the genetic end is because i witnesseed first hand genetics playing into a dogs makeup. my last gsd was HA and DA and a whole bunch of other things as well. i by accident met her 2 half brothers. all 3 dogs had the same father. all 3 dogs had different mothers.. all 3 dogs had the same DA,HA and allergies .. looking at her 2 half brothers was looking into a mirror with my female.. all 3 had the SAME issues, once we (owners) pulled out our akc papers and compared them all 3 dogs had the same father. all 3 were raised differently (but local within a 1 5 min ride of each other go figure) and all 3 still exhibited the same dog and human aggression (allergies didnt count) and all 3 were raised differently.. so in that case , genetics had a HUGE impact on all 3 of those dogs having the same father...

we all know old timers bred the dogs that showed the most desire to fight to other dogs to hone those skills and bred dogs who loved humans for those skills.. so why cant we say that yes, genetics does have a say in a dogs makeup for certain breeds..

[RealPitBull]

I'd rather not get nailed to the wall. This is why RPB talks about the likelihood of Pit Bulls showing dog-directed aggression, and what to do in order to handle it and avoid problems (be prepared for it, separate dogs, no dog parks, etc) without actually saying "Pit Bulls are genetically dog aggressive".

[perseus]

we all know old timers bred the dogs that showed the most desire to fight to other dogs to hone those skills and bred dogs who loved humans for those skills.. so why cant we say that yes, genetics does have a say in a dogs makeup for certain breeds..

Read more: therealpitbull.proboards.com/post/new/12628#ixzz2XuyVPgCA

I was thinking the exact same thing and while I know you can't prove it scientifically that was the thought process.

[RealPitBull]

Aside from OCD behaviors, and instinctual fixed action patterns (stalk-chase-kill), I'm not aware of behavior being genetic, per se, as far as behavioral science is concerned, which is why I steer clear of labeling any behavior "genetic" at this point. But I'm pretty much a straight Skinnerian when it comes to behavior, so....

Obviously I do believe in the power of selective breeding, and why certain breeds are prone to showing certain behaviors on a more common/regular basis. I'm more inclined to say temperament is genetic vs behavior that is manifested as a result of said temperament. If that makes any sense whatsoever?

[perseus]

There certainly is not a lack of anectdotal evidence supporting the idea that this a subject that is a bit of a mine field. I have read numerous account by dogmen where the offspring of a breeding between two very game dogs produced duds by their accounts and vice versa breedings, where no gameness had ever been apparent in those dogs produced game dogs in the offspring. Also, accounts where a decidely game dog existed alongside other dogs with no DA unless it was put into the box and then it was on.

[perseus]

I'm more inclined to say temperament is genetic vs behavior that is manifested as a result of said temperament. If that makes any sense whatsoever?

Read more: therealpitbull.proboards.com/thread/12628/pit-bulls-propensity-directed-aggression?page=1#scrollTo=104955#ixzz2XvCvo3q7

Went back and reread a couple times and chewed on last sentence a bit. That's really a good way to put in imo.