I think I need to put Reed down

[lola1]

He has started growling a bit when on the couch. Even if I am there first. He's always been a little funny around small/young kids, we figured it was poor socialization and just wouldn't let hiim off leash when small/young kids were over.
Today he tried to lunge after a 1 1/2 year old and growled and barked at another person (12yrs old and adult size).
I've spoken to the Rescue where I got him from and I have plans to bring him to obedience training starting Jan. 12, but I don't think I should wait and/or even try the training.
Please help me make the right choice. In my mind I know what I need to do, I need help making my heart know what to do.

[bubsy]

Oh man, I'm so sorry you're going through this. I would recommend a good behaviorist to evaluate Reed. Are you near Midland, MI? That's where Brenda Aloff is, I would trust her to evaluate my dog.
brendaaloff.com/

[lola1]

No but should I drive there? Would it be worth it in your opinion?

[lola1]

Dec 29, 2008 23:50:11 GMT -5 bubsy said:

Oh man, I'm so sorry you're going through this. I would recommend a good behaviorist to evaluate Reed. Are you near Midland, MI? That's where Brenda Aloff is, I would trust her to evaluate my dog.
brendaaloff.com/

Thank you, I will see hoe far away she is, the Humane Society in my area has a behavioral
specialist as well, just not too sure to trust her

[RealPitBull]

I hope you consider working with a behaviorist (see the thread stickied on this board to help you find a qualified behaviorist) before you rush your decision to euthanize. Obedience training is not what he needs, soley, although that will help.

I would also suggest you IMMEDIATELY start a 'Nothing in life is free' protocol (do a search online, you'll find plenty), keep him off furniture, and consider taking him out ONLY in a head collar backed-up with a second leash/collar. There is a headcollar thread on this board - if you use a head collar, please read it. Also, if you have any questions, please let me know.

The first thing I do with aggressive Pit Bulls is help the owner gain control and tell the owner to get the dog OUT of the environment/situation in which the dog aggresses. So for you, away from kids and no furniture! For control, walk your dog on a Gentle Leader with a leash snapped to the GL. Then, put a second collar on the dog (you can use your regular walking collar, but I like Premier Martingale collars, or even a harness like Sensation or Easy Walk), then snap a SECOND leash to that collar. This will help you maintain control of your dog. The GL will help somewhat control the head/mouth.

Obviously safety for you and other people is of paramount importance.

[maryellen]

if you got him from a rescue read your adoption contract, you cant euthanize him unless you get it in writing from the rescue. honestly, i would not keep him, but thats just me... any pit bull that shows this type of behavior is not safe around children, there are too many good sound pitbulls dying in shelters that could use good homes.. genetically screwed up ones that show they are a danger to the public should go to the Rainbow Bridge..

you must think carefully if you decide to keep him. CAN YOU safely manage a dog with aggression issues for the next 15 years???? are you 200% sure you wont be another headline if you make a mistake and the dog gets out.... as far as him growling at you when you are on the couch, take his fuzzy ass off the couch and take away ALL Privileges.. immediately.... boot camp 101 immediately. start NILIF (www.k9deb.com Nothing In Life Is Free) and make him work his ass off for everything, from food, to petting, to going outside, anything and everything make him work for it.he doesnt work for it he doesnt get it.period...

i would see Brenda Aloff instead of the humane society.

[RealPitBull]

Hmm yeah, what'd the rescue say about all this?

Good post, ME!

[emilys]

Dec 30, 2008 10:48:49 GMT -5 maryellen said:

if you got him from a rescue read your adoption contract, you cant euthanize him unless you get it in writing from the rescue. ...

so what would the rescue do if someone DID euthanize a dog obtained from them?
???

[maryellen]

the rescue if they really wanted to could sue the owners, i know most rescues wouldnt, but if a rescue adopts out an already sketchy dog there is more of a chance they would sue.. reputable rescues dont adopt out sketchy dogs, and therefore are more stable.. the rescues that are the tree hugger no kill save them all (not saying this rescue is ) are the ones that put up the big stink regarding euthanasia... and cause all the problems.. a friend of mine had to euth her dog, not a pit, due to bad aggression to humans.. she got him from a "rescue" that had the save them all attitude, after the dog attacked 3 family members, and after she made numerous calls, emails, certified letters, the rescue didnt respond.. so she had the dog euthed at her vet.. the rescue finally responded a few WEEKS later, and went off the wall and screamed at her telling her that the dog just needed training and love, and how dare she euth one of gods creatures, and then the rescue started harassing her and filing false accusations... so, when all was said and done, my friend went thru hell to prove the dog was unstable and couldnt function in society, was a danger, and eventually after 3 restraining orders and her moving the rescue stopped harassing her..

another friend adopted a pit bull from another rescue.. dog thank god was sound , however, the rescue had someone else do the home check, and left the dog that night with the new owners.. the home check girl didnt like that the adopters had 2 other pitbulls. male/female. so instead of not leaving the dog, she leaves it. tells the rescue the next day that she feels the dog would be crated all the time.. rescue turns around and tries to take the dog back , adopters work at a boarding/daycare facility,and all 3 dogs go to work with them and are in the office loose with them.. home check girl makes up all sorts of lies, and the rescue goes to their house in the middle of the night banging on doors to get the dog.. the adopters eventually moved out of state and had 2 restraining orders on the rescue to leave them alone

that is why i say to read the contract and get it in writing, you honestly never know what kind of people you deal with in rescue..

[lola1]

My contract does say that I cannot euthanize him, give him to someone else, send him to a shelter etc, without their permission. I have communicated with the rescue/foster mom who I got him from several times over the past few months and have her permission to euthanize IF I feel it's necessary, or I can bring him back to her and she can make that decision.
I really would rather put in the work and keep him if I can. My problem is my boyfriend doesn't take this seriously AT ALL and thinks I'm crazy for even being on this forum. He will not put in the effort because he thinks I'm nuts and doesn't understand the importance of having a safe dog. He most definitely doesn't take Reeds breed and the bad reputation they have already into consideration. I think I failed Reed already as far as being the right home for him.

[bamapitbullmom]

Our adoption contract reads:

"Adopter agrees not to sell, trade or dispose of the dog. If at any time the adopter is unable or unwilling to care for the dog, the adopter agrees to contact BBR and return the dog."

Maybe we should amend it to include decisions to euthanize for reasons such as human aggression. But I would like for our group to be contacted and be part of the decision, instead of find out after the fact, especially if we could have helped or if something else was going on.

In Reed's case, depending on what group you adopted him from and what their position was when you contacted them, I would hesitate to return him. If they are bleeding heart types, he'll end up being adopted out again and potentially hurt someone. That's not fair to him or anyone.

Read your adoption contract. Hopefully there is a section in it which discusses their adoptables are temperament tested, deemed adoptable (by whatever methods) or maybe his listing was really misleading.

I don't know how old he is, how old he was when you got him or how long he has shown indications of this issue. But I would be interested in those details as well as any reputation you may know of with the group's dealings with past adopters and how they handle returned pets.

I agree with Mary's suggestions, Reed needs to be on a strict NILIF program, he must now earn every resource and priviledge. I would also increase his exercise (mental and physical) and suggest that you do hire a veterinary behaviorist or experienced, positive trainer who is qualified in dealing with aggressive dogs and have an in-home consult.

Reed also should be checked out for any medical conditions which may specifically be influencing his behavior.

There is a lot of information on the web and you should begin by understanding the methods used to counter condition dogs exhibiting aggressive behaviors just so you know what *not* to do.

There are some great books specifically addressing aggression available too. Check out www.dogwise.com

Keep us posted!

[bamapitbullmom]

Lola~ Is this the same boyfriend who didn't have an issue with the dogs jumping or am I thinking of someone else?

[lola1]

Dec 30, 2008 12:22:42 GMT -5 bamapitbullmom said:

Lola~ Is this the same boyfriend who didn't have an issue with the dogs jumping or am I thinking of someone else?

Absolutely it is the same one. In fact this has nothing to do with this situation really, but I've recently been re-evaluating things with him, and not sure that he's going to be around much longer. It's been five years, and I'm just not there anymore.

[lola1]

Also, some details about Reed for you Jessica
Reed is 14 months old, I have had him for 3 months and he started growling almost immediately. I couldn't do much about it at first because my father was in the end stage of cancer and I was at home with my mom and sister taking care of him. I wasn't even working. I was pretty much living at my parents house to help keep him as comfortable as possible.
Is there a pattern emerging that I don't have much support? I couldn't count on my boyfriend to do ANYTHING about it, because he, again, did not think it was an issue! UGH now I'm really mad. Sorry, this isn't the right time/place to deal with this.
Also, I have really not ever heard of the rescue that I got him from. They were on Petfinder, and they did the vet check, the home check, I e-mailed back and forth with her for ever, until he finally came for the home visit.

[maryellen]

forget about the boyfriend. if he doesnt live with you that is better.. if he cant be on the same page as you then toss him.
as far as reed, is he a pit bull , pit bull mix? what is he? how long did the rescue have him in a foster home? what rescue is this? make sure you keep records of every phone call, every email to and from the rescue regarding Reed. have the vet do a full thryoid panel on him, to rule out thyroid issues. is he neutered? if not, neuter him now.
you didnt fail him, you cant fix genetics only manage it, so stop blaming yourself

[bamapitbullmom]

First of all, I'm really sorry for your relationship troubles. You sound like a very intelligent, focused girl and the bf seems to be a hinderance, from what I've heard thusfar.

Reed is incredibly young and this may be a lack of socialization, genetics, improper management and handling in the first 12 months, lack of confidence or a combination of all of the above.

He's in full fledged adolescence but aggressing towards humans cannot be tolerated. I'd be really interested in an example. Does he immediately focus/become intent on a person? Become overly excited, straining to reach them? Growling, barking, posturing upon sight?

Do he seem nervous, discontent, avoiding? Confused?

I generally do not work with aggressive dogs, it just isn't my cup of tea but I'm wondering what is going on here.

I also wonder if the possibility was there, if this aggressive behavior was encouraged either intentionally or unintentionally.

[RealPitBull]

Nicole, I'm really sorry....sounds like you've been going through a rough time, lately. IME, if you can't rely on the person to be there and support you emotionally, it will never work. Doesn't sound like this guy deserves you....

As for Reed, once a dog is in a home and a person has committed to him, I think they owe it to the dog to at least carefully consider all options before jumping to euthanize (not that I think you are jumping - you are obvisouly thinking through this carefully).

The things I have people ask themselves before they make a choice, are....

1) Can this dog be kept in a way that would prevent him from harming a person? In other words, is management an option here? Management = setting the dog up to succeed in whatever situation he is currently in, as well as keeping certain aspects of the environment away from him (i.e. kids, strange adults, etc) that would cause him to have an aggressive outburst.

2) Can you make a full commitment to a training/behavior protocal, as well as a management plan?

3) Have you taken the dog to the vet to rule out any and all possible health problems?

4) Can you afford to work with a qualified trainer/behaviorist for a least a few sessions so you may have someone assess your dog and help you form a reasonable outlook, and a training plan?

If you've answered yes to the above questions, then I'd start thinking about moving forward with some actual solutions.

Just some things I'm curious about, and might be able to offer helpful suggestions on:

*How much exercise does the dog get daily
*What sort of food the dog is on
*Medical history
*Training history
*Behavioral/bite history
*Dog's 'place' in the home - is he crated, allowed free reign, etc.

[angels8]

Honestly, I am going to agree 100% with MaryEllen, why keep an unstable dog that could become a lawsuit waiting to happen while there are pittiful pitties with great temperaments awaiting homes or euthanasia. I think you need to take the dog to the vet to rule out medical issues then return the dog to the rescue, and let them make the decision.

I just had a friend with a rescue Akita do this,It started out just generally dominant and growling then She was like Jekyl and Hyde Akita, She was so so around my friend and her fiance but if friends and family came over she would go psycho. OUt in public she would lunge at children and animals and was generally uncontrollable, the resuce took her back and was going to place her with a new foster until she lunged at the coordinator, They did the best for the girl and euthed her, and they also went to the kill shelter and pulled another akita that was waiting.

[maryellen]

the only reason why i asked if you could contain Reed for the next 15 years is because i manage an unstable gsd, been doing it since she turned 2, she is now 7 1/2.. its HARD WORK.. i cant take her out in public, and if i do i must make sure no one comes near her, i must watch all around me to make sure no one runs up to her to pet her. in my house she is fine with people coming over, but out in public she is another story. since i made the personal decision to manage her for her entire life with me instead of euthanizing her i can tell you from experience its a constant reminder of doors/collars /double collars, strong leashes, etc.. i do take her to the local park when no one is there in the wee hours of the morning.she does go to the vets office, she is fine with the vets and techs, but i have to tell people to leave her alone and not to approach her and also keep their dogs away as she is also very DA.. what is her life like you ask? its home.. yard.. thats basically it.. with an occasional trip to the vet or park.. i dont take her to petstores, friends houses, parks, no more pictures with santa (the only times she had those taken was when i knew the santa person who also knew her when i was involved in rott rescue years ago. other wise she was not allowed out.. its a pain in the ass, trust me, but i decided 5 1/2 years ago to manage her instead, and give her some quality of life.. she loves to be with me, and outside, but i cant do with her like i can with rufus and bring her anywhere.. she doesnt like small children, even though she grew up with my stepkids when they were 7 years old. so if people come over with small children i have to put her in the bedroom and shut/lock the door. its not the greatest life for her, but its what i can give her and she does ok by it.. you really just have to think long and hard about your two options.. i also had trainers come here and took her to training as well to make sure i could manage her, as i wanted to be sure about her handling.. and i got the privilege of meeting her 2 half brothers, her and her 2 half brothers have the same father- thank you AKC for allowing unstable dogs to be bred- and her 2 half brothers have the EXACT same temperment as her.. pretty scary when you meet 2 related dogs and see the akc papers and see all 3 have the same father, with the same temperments, etc.... so its not an easy task, some folks say oh its easy to manage an HA dog.. ITS NOT... trust me..

if i didnt have the experience with managing an HA dog i would have not said what i said.. but knowing what is involved, and having been doing it for years now its no walk in the park trust me..
i love my jesse girl dearly, and promised her to keep her safe and the public safe.. but i wouldnt wish this on anyone.

[lola1]

Reed is a pit bull, no mix that I'm aware of. He was neutered at 6 months old. He and his sister were dropped off at a shelter at 5 months old. They were at the shelter for 1 month, then to foster care with the rescue. He was in foster care for around 5 months. He was crated alot because the foster had 10 dogs and all were pit bull/pit mix.
He is good in public. He does not go after anything, unless it's a squirrel. He walks well on leash. He has excellent recall. He is very eager to say hi though, jumps/licks. I have had the feeling though that he is not confident. He barks when people are at the door. As soon as he sees them he stops. When he growls, often his eyes are closed, he does not pick up his head, he does not move, just a short growl and that's it. It's not every time, It's towards mainly my BF and I. But if I motion for him to get off the couch/bed, he doesn't hesitate to get up. He is mainly only crated when we are gone at work. Other than that there is usually one of us home
He gets extremely scared when we go somewhere new. The first time I took him to the vet he tucked his tail, put his head down and wouldn't move. I had to practically drag him to the exam room. He lunged at the vet tech when the vet looked in his ears, and the tech was feeding him soft food at the time. The last time they wanted him muzzled just in case. He did growl also.
The incident yesterday was that I had my mom sister and good friend over for dinner, I think he got stressed out from the noise, and the kids. The 1 1/2 yr old wanted to kiss his ear, she wasn't very close to him when he whipped his head around at her. He didn't growl or lunge, just looked at her. So I brought him away from everyone and had him sitting next to me and I had ahold of his collar, the toddler came over to me, as I was trying to get her to go to her mother, he did lunge at her. I was able to keep him away and I put him outside for a while after that.
Then, later my friends daughter came over to spend the night and he barked and growled at her as soon as she got in the door. She's over here all the time, he knows her. So after that, he was in his crate.
Also, when the BF got home today I told him there is NO room for his ideas of what needs to be done. I told him there is NO negotiating about training, and he needs to listen to me and help with a trainer, training at home everything. That our relationship is partly conditional on this. We will see how well he does. He needs more training than Reed. LOL.