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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 13, 2009 11:03:07 GMT -5
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Post by maryellen on Jan 13, 2009 12:52:50 GMT -5
ok i just watched it, they showed the black gsd getting and redirecting and biting its owner, the episode with the outof control jhindo, and they are saying that these dogs need positive only training, and that he is basically making the animals worse.. i know that shock collars can have an animal redirect, and not work. the outof control jindo he held the leash while the dog flipped out, the dog went crazy, on its back and the hsus said he choked the air out of the dog and that it was abuse. honestly, he is good with small dog (yap yap) dogs, as owners do treat them like accessories rather then dogs, and baby the hell out of them. with big dogs, most of his stuff i dont like, but i do like that he says that dogs need mental/physical exercise and to not be coddled.. otherwise i dont like him.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 13, 2009 14:07:42 GMT -5
Thanks, I'm curious to check it out. There was an article in Parade magazine on him.....my mom told me, "Your friend is in Parade" I told her don't tell me about it, didn't want to read a glowing review LOL Then Scott comes home last night with the same article that the future MIL gave him to give to me. I feel like I can't get away from this guy!
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Post by maryellen on Jan 13, 2009 14:15:46 GMT -5
well, i can see how the totally positive trainers feel he is bad news.. one totally positive trainer said all the dogs need is positive training and treats to cure them basically.. which to me, with some dogs,yes that will work, but with other dogs, it might not work... i think the problem is that he is the one cashing in on his training, while other dog trainers are just plugging away doing their obedience classes and not getting recognized, then there are the trainers who dont care what he says, they believe their ways work, then there are the trainers that are horrified to see him use shock collars/prongs/force for some dogs, etc.. its like a snowball effect, and the old saying 2 trainers can agree that one is doing it wrong LOL.. cesar himself said in the video that he isnt always right, and that what works for him might not work for others.. do i think some of his stuff is messed up? hell yes (the white gsd comes to mind first, he wanted that owner to train the gsd for service work yet the dog bites...) some of his stuff is good, some isnt, which honestly is like any trainer, some works, some doesnt, some is good, some isnt..... he is just the one getting the glory right now with his tv show/dvd/books etc... i can say that his training on little dogs is spot on, tells the owners to treat the dog like a dog, and to stop babying the dog,.. i had a couple in one of rubys classses with a yorkie, omg mary they babied the hell out of this dog, to the point the dog was such a bad dog- didnt listen, threw tantrums, bit, growled, just a nasty little dog.. when i suggested they stop babying her and treat her like a dog and give her rules, they just couldnt, cause she was"so little and was their baby"..
some of his stuff for the big dogs is ok, like rules, more exercise, nilif.. other stuff, no way..
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 13, 2009 14:44:20 GMT -5
Welllllllllllll..............I just don't think the very few (basic) things that Milan gets right are an excuse for all the things he gets terribly wrong. The fact that there are SO many trainers *just like him* is bad enough. But he's a Hollywood star at this point and is soooo mainstream, and so many people think he is the dog trainer god, using his misinformation on their dogs - harming their dogs - and as someone involved in the profession, the detrimental effects of this guy have been pretty apparent.
The bottom line is you don't need to use force and pain to train dogs, and the good trainers/behaviorists prove this. There is just too much material - research, good books, resources, etc out there to justify anyone training with blinders on the way this guy does.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 13, 2009 14:53:02 GMT -5
Wanted to add....imagine if a positive/well-versed in behavior theory trainer was as mainstream as Milan, and how wonderful an effect such a person could have on how dogs are handled and trained? One of my idols, Ken Rimirez, was going to do a show in Australia (I can't remember the details or if the show ever actually happened) - he is fun, funny, and I think could appeal to a wide audience. He is a brilliant exotics trainer. I know, though, that it would be difficult marketing positive training because it often doesn't even look like training - it's not dramatic, and very often even the aggressive dogs won't appear aggressive during training. So with American audiences being what they are - looking for that drama and 'gasp factor', I think Milan is giving them exactly what they want. (Look at the other popular trainer that's on tv, Victoria Stillwell....and she's no where near as popular as Milan.....she has a schtick, the whole Big Boss Lady/Dominatrix/Tough Bitch kinda thing going on.)
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Post by maryellen on Jan 13, 2009 15:03:12 GMT -5
oh i dont agree with cesar using force like he does, i do like how he tells the owners of small dogs to stop babying them. i like victoria stillwell, she is cool and no nonsense (and yeah she has that S&M look going on)
i also think that the american people want a quick fix... which cesar does do whether right or wrong, and that most folks dont want to do the slow steady right approach.. like victoria does all positive and makes the folks work with the dog, which is awesome.. while cesar does stuff that gets results immediately and the folks dont really have to work at it as much.. which sucks.
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Post by maryellen on Jan 13, 2009 15:03:56 GMT -5
and i am not making any excuses for him either.. i think that its just how the american people who are not dog savvy see him
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 13, 2009 15:20:51 GMT -5
Yup yup, I see what you are saying The immediacy factor too - good point, people need to see things happen NOW. And Milan accomlishes that quite well by shutting dogs down. I too think Victoria Stillwell is good. She's not the best, but she's still putting positive stuff out there, so I'm cool with her. My judgemental self LOL For the benefit of discussion, and comparison of training methods, I first learned how to train dogs using methods like Milan's - I think most people who have been working with dogs a while learned to train in that way. But the two trainers (sisters) I learned from were SO INCREDIBLY like him, that when I see Milan, I see flash backs to a past that holds so many regrets for me (this was 20+ years ago that I first learned about training, and I 'crossed over' starting in probably late 90's). But hey, I didn't know better - and thankfully my brain was open enough to receive new information when it came along (irony of ironies, I was exposed to clicker training in a traditional, force-based class!!). Because I've used the techniques, I know what they do to dogs, I know what they accomplish - and don't accomplish. And I have no tolerance for what Milan and similar trainers do - none.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 13, 2009 15:39:12 GMT -5
Hi ME!
Just wanted to touch on your comment that you see how the "totally positive trainers feel his is bad news". It isn't just the pure positive trainers. It's anyone with an education about dog behavior and the science behind it. I do not consider myself a pure positive trainer, I will use mild aversives, mostly stern verbal crack downs, time outs, noise redirections, etc.
I've DONE the force training, the leash "pops", the punishments and therefore I not only have the understanding of a frustrated dog owner and the "means to an end" tactics (via the needless abuse of my past dogs). I also use that knowledge and experience to now VIVIDLY see how much, much, much more effective positive methods are.
I think I would safely say that the vast majority of possitive trainers today have crossed over from traditional trainers. Few are truly pure positive. And pure positive means no aversions at all.
As for my CM gripes in general:
I will not ever support anyone who uses a shock collar and even worse, anyone in the public eye, a *star* that thousands of people emulate. Has CM EVER explained how to properly use a shock collar? Nope, because there is no proper use of one, it's painful, it's abusive and damaging physically and mentally. Not to mention, the average pet owner will run right out to the nearest Pestmart (intended misspelling) slap one on their dog and say those famous words, "Watch this..." With absolutely no clue about timing, proper fitting, when to use it and how b/c they aren't going to waste their time educating themselves about such an "easy fix tool". The instructions probably go in the trash with the plastic box.
The only thing I agree with is the fact that dogs do not get enough exercise and mental stimulation. They are allowed too many freedoms with nothing required in return. They are "babies" or "children" in the eyes of their owners. They are anthromorphosized and I am glad that CM addresses that. Do we seriously need to weed through all the detrimental techniques to get that nugget? Common sense!
Kids get bored, they write on the walls...dogs get bored they bark, dig, chew, etc...what's the big secret? CM is a marketing genius. He certainly has fulfilled his very public plan to come to the states (illegally) marry and become rich and famous. Hmm...Ian Dunbar is in it to better dogs and owners' lives. So is practically every other trainer I surround myself with and admire.
CM fans are exceptionally easy to spot. Because they all treat and handle their dogs the same way. The problem here is, not every dog or owner is the same. But CM portrays some signature moves and sounds which you can identify in a heartbeat when you hear and see them. (More marketing? Will he trademark the TSSS!)?
What concerns me is that very few of these owners have ever considered what they are doing to their dogs. It's no better than the owner who says "No!" every five seconds no matter what the dog is doing. Eventually it loses meaning or the dog is so terrified to make a move or worse, of it's owner that there is no quality of life or relationship. Dogs should be enjoyed, understood, not mechanical and broken down.
I absolutely believe that the general public see him as a miraculous trainer. He's no trainer, says so himself. His methods have not expanded one iota since he first came into the scene which is a scary sign. Growth is part of the deal. Training is evolving as we understand and learn more about how our beloved canines work and why and how. His techniques are out-dated, disputed and proven ineffective and dangerous (and we know people try them, like the GSD owner who tried to alpha roll her dog and got a whopping bite to the face requiring a whole bunch of stitches). But what does CM care? He has that disclaimer and all.
One of the scariest and most concerning episodes I have ever watched actually made me sick. The young, very financially well off couple who had a gorgeous, young Greater Swiss Mountain Dog. The dog was very well trained, reliable to verbal and hand signals. The dog was a resource guarder and was getting worse.
CM came to the rescue and proceeded to punish the dog each time he offered the slightest warning and cracked down when he growled. He physically blocked him from his food, pushing him away and "claimed the dog's food". The couple was amazed when the dog figured the routine out and gave up.
CM proceeded to further "prove" to the dog who was in charge and give him a job...what better than drafting since that's what the breed was bred for right?
So CM hooks up a garden cart (the heavy steel kind) and put a harness (a regular dog harness, not an Xback or drafting harness) and off they go. The wheels make a heck of a ruckus on the pavement, the dog flips out, tries to flee the cart (more anxiety and undue negative experience) and he is essentially flooded until the dog shuts down and accepts the situation while CM sits on the cart pumping his fists in the air and grinning from ear to ear.
Now...what made my skin crawl and really made me ill was the fact that the reason the couple called CM to "fix" the resource guarding was because they wanted to start a family and were concerned about a child being bitten while the dog was eating.
What CM did was give this couple the tools to effectively suppress any warning this dog was willingly giving. So, now we a 100+ pound dog which has been conditioned to not growl and instead will reach a threshold and bite. The headline will read:
"Dog snaps and bites toddler with no warning"
This dog also learned that people approaching his resources is a bad/negative thing for him. Hands take away.
There were so many better, much more effective things this couple could have done to not only eliminate the resource guarding but change the way the dog perceives his resources being approached. Using other methods, he would happily anticipate any hands, adult or toddler, reaching into his food bowl. But because they called CM, this dog will most likely put someone in the hospital.
That is the worst disservice and CM should be ashamed of himself.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 13, 2009 15:46:15 GMT -5
So sorry for the long rant, and Maryellen, all of that was not directed to you at all, I just initially wanted to reply to that first part. I wasn't disagreeing, just elaborating. I'm in a bit of a mood today, sleepless night and met a jerk of a pit bull owner at the vet this am...
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 13, 2009 15:53:49 GMT -5
The description alone of the episode above made my skin crawl, and I haven't seen the episode! I think Milan has a HUGE ego, and I don't know that he necessarily cares about dogs or their owners. I know others may disagree. It's just a feeling, and I don't see how anyone who cares could put dogs and humans at risk the way he does - well, it's either he doesn't care or is just incredibly stupid (don't think it's the latter ). I think fame and money are the driving forces behind what he does. His formula WORKS, he's received tons of positive reinforcement by way of $$$$, popularity, adulation. Why change the recipe? UNLESS he really cared. And I can't stand that line he regurgitates over and over: "I REHABILITATE dogs; I train people". What does that even MEAN?????
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 13, 2009 15:56:19 GMT -5
What I want to see (or do I?) is what hit the cutting room floor.
If what they show is this bad, this stressful for the dog, this stressful for the owners...what do we NOT see?? Yikes!
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 13, 2009 16:01:28 GMT -5
I wonder the same thing..............I can't even watch the show anymore, TBH I haven't seen any new episodes. It just makes me too sad.
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Post by maryellen on Jan 13, 2009 18:01:23 GMT -5
unfortunately the jq public wants results immediately and most dog owners like that. us dog savvy folks know his methods are pure crap.
most positive trainers and regular trainers think his methods are crap as well. except for the followers, they think he is god. and dont worry, i know you werent taking it out on me.. i had a conversation with a woman who wanted to give up her 7 month old pit because he had no rules, she followed cesar and wanted to get a shock collar , which i toldher was WRONG . she didnt like that i felt the dog needed rules and training, she wanted a quick fix and thought cesar was god. it was horrible. i spent an hour trying to talk to her about positive training and such, but she didnt want to hear it because she is a cesar fan. i find that alot out here..
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 14, 2009 8:25:07 GMT -5
OH yeah, the fans don't want to hear no nuthin'! NO matter what you say to them, they will always say "You/the veterinary behaviorist/the behavior analyst/the PhD/are wrong!" It's like Milan's a religion and people refuse to believe something other than what their leader tells them to be true.
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Post by maryellen on Jan 14, 2009 10:28:31 GMT -5
i still watch his show, its on every friday night with new episodes then, the rest of the week its all reruns...
yeah, his cult following is super into him, if you say one wrong thing they immediately ignore you...pretty sad.... the woman i was talking too i was trying to tell her the dog needed more exercise and rules as he got NONE.. yep, 7-8 month old pit and no rules, no exercise, no structure, nothing... free to do what he wanted... super bratty... when i told her he needed at least an hour exercise a few times a day, including mental exercise and obedience work she said, but cesar suggested shock collars for dogs.. i said, no, your dog needs exercise and stimulation.. which i beleive all dogs need exercise and rules.. just like kids.. i suggested a treadmill when she said it was too cold to go walking, i suggested warm coats, booties, flirt pole, bustercube, the whole nine yards.. she didnt want to fix the problem over time, she actually said she wanted a quick fix as her 10 year old pit has kidney failure and she is devoting all her time to him, not the pup.... i told her all the rescues were full, but gave her the names of them all anyway, as any place was better then her house... pretty sad..
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 14, 2009 10:41:00 GMT -5
That is very sad......poor pup. And he'll be even worse off and more neurotic if she starts zapping him with a shock collar. When I saw that clip of Milan shocking that poor GSD, it broke my heart. Shock collars should ONLY be available through veterinary behaviorists who have gone through specialized training. If they HAVE to be available at all (I personally think shock collars are horrid and would never in a million years use one.) Thanks CESAR, for promoting the use of one of the most detrimental and misused training tools on the market. I thought it was funny that the clip stated something along the lines of, "No one disputes that Milan's love for dogs in genuine...." He might love dogs, but he doesn't care enough about them to stop and think of the side effects of his show or to even educate himself about modern techniques.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 14, 2009 12:53:37 GMT -5
When CM first came out I remember being sooo happy that FINALLY someone is showing pit bulls and Rottweilers in a positive light. About halfway through the first episode (can't even remember what it was about) I felt like I had been kicked in the stomach.
I meet people all the time who are ga-ga over him but consistently, I have never heard one of them ever question the "techniques". They were so sucked in that they never thought to consider any other way.
When I meet these people, usually in pet stores or somewhere where they have their leashed dogs, they are having difficulty in handling them. They're repeatedly jerking the leash, etc.
What I do (I always carry cookies and goodies in my pocket) is *very* subtly begin to lure and wait for sits, it's usually not even noticeable to the owner b/c they just think I'm offering treats and we're talking the entire time. But after a few minutes the dog is usually offering sits and waiting for his treat.
By that time, I'm usually pretty sure I could say anything to the dog and it would offer a sit so I ask the dog to 'sit' and when it does the owner, whether they say it or not, usually looks surprised. If it makes them think for even a second that there are easier and less-effort ways to train, then good.
I also tend to show off Cajun when in public, working him in pet store aisles, etc. It's good work for him and sometimes illicites, "How'd you teach him that?" questions which is my big fat opportunity to push positive reinforcement and everything BUT CM. And I usually interject jokingly, "Imagine the lack of trust he'd have in me had I done the crap Cesar Millan does!"
They may think CM is god, but they also just saw a well-behaved dog...er PIT BULL do a ton of tricks and behaviors on hand signal alone and the handler doesn't like CM? Hmm...food for thought?
Another peeve I have with CM is that I never hear him discuss diet, thyroid, medical issues. doG forbid he crunches down on a snarking Dachshund which actually has an undiagnosed back problem.
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Post by maryellen on Jan 14, 2009 13:40:27 GMT -5
i agree bama..
i did see one episode where the dog was VERY overweight, and he helped the owner with an exercise program and to cut back on the food the dog got, that one was a good show the woman's husband died, and she had 2 dogs, and one was a pitbull that was VERY overweight..
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