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Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 21, 2009 8:26:41 GMT -5
With behaviors we don't want (ie: jumping) I prefer to replace that behavior with another (ie: sit). If the dog is not rewarded (physical interaction, even a knee to the chest is a reward) for jumping and the person continuously turns away or walks away or when appropriate, waits the dog out then immediately rewards the second the dog sits, you will soon have a dog that offers a sit reliably instead of jumping. The jumping will extinguish. A sitting dog cannot jump and is easier to anticipate breaking position. I have had to use mild aversions with some real insistent jumpers and have placed my palm facing out for the dog to whomp into...oops...poor dog! Ran into my hand...but it isn't necessarily a punishment and also gives a "stop" hand cue for those dogs slower to make the connection. Rewarding the "four on the floor" behavior is still immediately rewarded. So many owners focus on the behaviors they don't want that they spend all their time correcting and never thinking about teaching the dog what they would prefer. Don't want a dog that jumps? What instead would you prefer her to do? Looking at it from that angle sometimes makes it a bit easier to approach the issue constructively. NRM (No Reward Markers) are also important and can easily communicate when a dog does something that 1. You don't like and 2. Won't get him a reward. NRMs can vary from actual verbal cues, "That's not right" "Oops" or "Uhuh" "Too bad" all said in a happy, upbeat tone. I also use a dramatic gasp, as if you are just so the dog had the audacity to put his paws on you! Do it enough times and immediately reward when he hits the floor, you are well on the way to a light bulb moment on the canine's part. My foster was a big time jumper and paired with the fact that he weighs 70 lbs of pibble love, it wasn't a behavior that was endearing. His jumping issue was solved reliably within 3 days and this was a behavior which he had been allowed to do in the past. It was an engrained habit. But now he plants a sit. Not only is training (or modifying a behavior) easier this way, it is more effective and more effective for others. Dogs learn early who will physically push them away or knee them and will jump on everyone else, including the child who's not strong or tall enough to mimic the physical action. A default sit can also be further reinforced by only petting the dog when he's sitting nicely first, he gets up, affection disappears, he sits, he gets attention. Require a sit before the leash goes on, he gets up before you clip it on, leash is set down on the table and you try again in a few seconds. Requiring a sit before you open doors, before the dog is fed, etc are further reinforcements of a default sit, self-control and good manners.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 21, 2009 10:01:22 GMT -5
Just so our members understand, 'physicality' - or positive punishment (i.e. doing something unpleasant to the dog so the behavior is stopped) isn't necessary to train dogs. ALL dogs can be trained using mainly positive reinforcement, with a little negative punishement (i.e. removing something the dog wants when he performs a 'naughty' behavior). Positive training/positive reinforcement isn't something that only SOME dogs can be trained with. The science of learning applies to ALL, not just SOME, dogs. If one dog can be trained to be a great companion using positive reinforcement, ANY dog can be trained in the same way. It is all a matter of the HUMAN learning the proper techniques and organizing a training plan to suit the desired outcomes.
When I was a 'traditional' trainer, we used knees in the chest and muzzle-grabs all the time. Did these things ever work? Sure, sometimes. Sometimes not - and often they actually made the behaviors worse.
With muzzle grabs, specifically, the dog learns that they can struggle against pressure which often results in the human letting go. The behavior worsens because the dog learns they can struggle and fight and achieve a desired outcome (darned hand off the muzzle). This technique can also often agitate dogs, stress them out, and cause fear of hands approaching faces. I've seen dogs shy away from hands or snap at hands coming towards them after this technique has been used.
Knees in the chest can be painful and dare I say can even crack a rib. This technique is not used to allow the dog to 'slide off the knee', it is meant to be painful/uncomfortable and harsh enough that the dog gets bounced off the knee and fall backwards onto the floor. Snipe, you said you are using this method to simply block your dog and she is 'sliding off' your knee, yet you also mentioned she falls on her butt - so I wonder how exactly you are using a knee. If this method worked, I'd have to assume you are kneeing her with some force, since for most exuberant Pit Bull jumpers, simply holding your knee up wouldn't be a deterrant.
Also, Snipe, I am confused as to why you are walking your dog off leash where there are cars? Is it necessary to walk your dog off leash?
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Jan 21, 2009 15:40:00 GMT -5
With behaviors we don't want (ie: jumping) I prefer to replace that behavior with another (ie: sit). If the dog is not rewarded (physical interaction, even a knee to the chest is a reward) for jumping and the person continuously turns away or walks away or when appropriate, waits the dog out then immediately rewards the second the dog sits, you will soon have a dog that offers a sit reliably instead of jumping. The jumping will extinguish. A sitting dog cannot jump and is easier to anticipate breaking position. I have had to use mild aversions with some real insistent jumpers and have placed my palm facing out for the dog to whomp into...oops...poor dog! Ran into my hand...but it isn't necessarily a punishment and also gives a "stop" hand cue for those dogs slower to make the connection. Rewarding the "four on the floor" behavior is still immediately rewarded. So many owners focus on the behaviors they don't want that they spend all their time correcting and never thinking about teaching the dog what they would prefer. Don't want a dog that jumps? What instead would you prefer her to do? Looking at it from that angle sometimes makes it a bit easier to approach the issue constructively. NRM (No Reward Markers) are also important and can easily communicate when a dog does something that 1. You don't like and 2. Won't get him a reward. NRMs can vary from actual verbal cues, "That's not right" "Oops" or "Uhuh" "Too bad" all said in a happy, upbeat tone. I also use a dramatic gasp, as if you are just so the dog had the audacity to put his paws on you! Do it enough times and immediately reward when he hits the floor, you are well on the way to a light bulb moment on the canine's part. My foster was a big time jumper and paired with the fact that he weighs 70 lbs of pibble love, it wasn't a behavior that was endearing. His jumping issue was solved reliably within 3 days and this was a behavior which he had been allowed to do in the past. It was an engrained habit. But now he plants a sit. Not only is training (or modifying a behavior) easier this way, it is more effective and more effective for others. Dogs learn early who will physically push them away or knee them and will jump on everyone else, including the child who's not strong or tall enough to mimic the physical action. A default sit can also be further reinforced by only petting the dog when he's sitting nicely first, he gets up, affection disappears, he sits, he gets attention. Require a sit before the leash goes on, he gets up before you clip it on, leash is set down on the table and you try again in a few seconds. Requiring a sit before you open doors, before the dog is fed, etc are further reinforcements of a default sit, self-control and good manners. ya the whole palm thing is basically what the knee achieved. she knows many NRM mostly because of the tone of voice used with those words. not all of them are used to modify negative behavior either. when walking of leash she knows a quick "hey" means slow down because she is too far in front. and in the case of jumping we would use the knee block and then use a treat to get her to sit and wait, then give the treat. "Also, Snipe, I am confused as to why you are walking your dog off leash where there are cars? Is it necessary to walk your dog off leash?" um, it is mostly at our cape house when we are on very quiet roads, think packed dirt with houses. we may not see a car at all. as for thinking it's necessary, i do. it allows her to explore without me tugging on the leash to get her to move along. instead when she gets to far behind all i have to says is "let's go" and she continues. i always have a leash and if she isn't responding well i put her back on. "Knees in the chest can be painful and dare I say can even crack a rib." no you may not dare to say... the technique i used was more to get her to slide off. it kept her further away from my body which allowed me to issue a verbal NRM and then a reward for sitting after. the knee was up before she jumped so how is that different then her jumping into any other part of my body where she has the potential to not only injure herself but me as well?
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 21, 2009 15:51:48 GMT -5
Any physical manipulation or blocking I use as an absolute last resort and when it is critical to stop a dangerous behavior. I prefer to train dogs without touching them at all, other than reward attention. I like shaping a thinker.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 21, 2009 16:09:34 GMT -5
Sorry Snipe, I use the 'careful not to crack a rib' warning with anyone who uses knees in the dog's chest to teach the dog not to jump - I've seen dogs go flying, getting kneed very hard in the ribs/stomach. It's just my generic response, and for the benefit of anyone who might try this technique. I'm really not understanding your method of keeping your knee up waiting for your dog to jump - then when she does she slides off and falls? And that taught her not to jump? You asked how this was different than her jumping on any other part of your body, and my answer is "I don't know" - except that you said she slides off and falls on her butt. My own personal way of teaching dogs not to jump is to be careful not to reinforce jumping with any sort of attention, I teach an alternative behavior like Sit, and I also teach the dog that keeping all 'four on the floor' is highly reinforcing. I'm with you, Jessica, hands off training is the best way to teach dogs. They learn much faster without being manipulated or forced into position. I've found clicker trained dogs, for instance, are much more eager to try new things and experiment with behaviors which makes them use (and grow) their brains.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Jan 21, 2009 16:12:10 GMT -5
couldn't it also be argued that by blocking the dog is acting as an individual "thinker" (quote not sarcasm)? wouldn't the dog also learn that by blocking (with either hand or knee) that you want them farther away? i do not mean to dominate them physically but to interact with them. since (as i said) the knee was already up the first time they jumped and then they fell/slipped off (or however you want to put it) on their own accord wouldn't they learn from the very beginning that jumping will not bring them any closer? we (the human) are not causing an unpleasant experience the dog is.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 21, 2009 16:24:29 GMT -5
Well for some dogs, I'd argue that a raised knee is just as good a target to aim for as any other part of the body. But if I am reading you correctly, your dog jumps on your raised knee and then you pull it away some how so the dog is slid off the knee? And once her feet are on the ground you can ask her to sit and reward? I think I finally get what you mean.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Jan 21, 2009 16:40:21 GMT -5
yes it is more of an unpleasant foothold than a bump. yes and then there was a treat. that is why originally i said i think that sometimes there is a medium to be reached. because even as dogs interact with each other they do so entirely through there body whether it be a nip, or using body language from afar, it is still all done physically. however humans have the capacity to not only be physical but communicate through other ways, such as treats.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 21, 2009 18:05:17 GMT -5
I don't consider the use of treats as communicating. Treats, affection, a verbal reward, a toss of the toy, whatever motivates them (the reward they seek) regardless of what it is is simply that, a reward. Communicating is teaching the dog what is expected via your actions (and IMO do not preferably or at all include physically making contact or inflicting contact) and helping the dog determine what behavior he did which earned what motivates him. I'd be interested in knowing what you would do if you knelt down and your dog jumped. A dog that understands through repetition and consistent timing and consequences (in this case good, not bad) will have a foundation to relate that it's the behavior of placing his feet on you which is what goes unrewarded. When I am teaching a dog a default sit via teaching them *not* to jump on humans I usually always see a dog which either gets it very quickly and begins offering sits quickly or a dog which begins to control himself by continuing to jump but without touching the person anymore which I can shape down to a sit. Teaching self-control goes hand in hand with this type of modification. The handler must continue to up the dog's desire to jump (or urge) by proofing the sit response. I would be worried that your knee going up is becoming a cue which the dog may heed and cause her to try to avoid but this isn't going to help her understand that someone who doesn't know to do this should not be jumped on. And even if she does manage to sporatically get a paw on you or anyone else is further reinforcing the fact that like a slot machine, sometimes it'll pay off.
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Post by mcgregor on Jan 21, 2009 18:41:41 GMT -5
Snipe
I do not agree that a dog has the concept of hate..... canine aggressiveness has nothing to do with hate....... dogs show mainly[glow=red,2,300] fear[/glow] when aggressive...dogs can be a love machine or an [glow=red,2,300]embodiment of redirected fear[/glow]..... most dogs that are abused and badly manhandled sitll retain love for homo sapians although those that still shy away from man; we call [glow=red,2,300]redirected fear from the past[/glow]...Take a look at the state of Vicks dogs .... they were greatly abused to the point of no return and yet they were trained and socialized to be better citizens and they they truly and amazingly have become wonderful adoptable dogs .... It was [glow=red,2,300]fear[/glow] not hate that initially held Vicks dogs mentally reined in..
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Jan 21, 2009 19:02:42 GMT -5
I don't consider the use of treats as communicating. Treats, affection, a verbal reward, a toss of the toy, whatever motivates them (the reward they seek) regardless of what it is is simply that, a reward. Communicating is teaching the dog what is expected via your actions (and IMO do not preferably or at all include physically making contact or inflicting contact) and helping the dog determine what behavior he did which earned what motivates him. I'd be interested in knowing what you would do if you knelt down and your dog jumped. A dog that understands through repetition and consistent timing and consequences (in this case good, not bad) will have a foundation to relate that it's the behavior of placing his feet on you which is what goes unrewarded. When I am teaching a dog a default sit via teaching them *not* to jump on humans I usually always see a dog which either gets it very quickly and begins offering sits quickly or a dog which begins to control himself by continuing to jump but without touching the person anymore which I can shape down to a sit. Teaching self-control goes hand in hand with this type of modification. The handler must continue to up the dog's desire to jump (or urge) by proofing the sit response. I would be worried that your knee going up is becoming a cue which the dog may heed and cause her to try to avoid but this isn't going to help her understand that someone who doesn't know to do this should not be jumped on. And even if she does manage to sporatically get a paw on you or anyone else is further reinforcing the fact that like a slot machine, sometimes it'll pay off. how is using treats not communicating. even with tricks sure we motivate them to do something. but then the reward is communicating we encourage/support that behavior. as for the kneeling part i would probably put my arm out, then once the dog is off ask her to sit. in both cases, kneeling or standing, i eventually got rid of any physical interaction all together. what it also does is gives me enough time, that should the dog attempt to jump again, i could issue an NRM. this was the routine more or less (she hasn't jumped in a long time): 1. anticipate jump (knee up) 2. dog gets no hold, and at the same time say off/down 3. sit and give treat muzzle hold (as someone else stated didn't work that well, on its own. but combined with a stern "no bite" was pretty affective. i mean that's probably one of the areas where she could be better. um, on a side note since i am not against positive training or anything like that and i am constantly trying out different ways to train my dogs. this is just a few experiences i had with my first dog. i found them to be affective, but i was wondering if i could get some responses to my question about my aunts yappy dog. because not only is it annoying (being woken up by her barking, but also having to clean up her pee) but it gets my dog going and is a bad influence. perhaps we should start a new post for that.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Jan 21, 2009 19:05:10 GMT -5
Snipe I do not agree that a dog has the concept of hate..... canine aggressiveness has nothing to do with hate....... dogs show mainly[glow=red,2,300] fear[/glow] when aggressive...dogs can be a love machine or an [glow=red,2,300]embodiment of redirected fear[/glow]..... most dogs that are abused and badly manhandled sitll retain love for homo sapians although those that still shy away from man; we call [glow=red,2,300]redirected fear from the past[/glow]...Take a look at the state of Vicks dogs .... they were greatly abused to the point of no return and yet they were trained and socialized to be better citizens and they they truly and amazingly have become wonderful adoptable dogs .... It was [glow=red,2,300]fear[/glow] not hate that initially held Vicks dogs mentally reined in.. um could we get a repost in the Mean post this is in wrong section and completely different conversation. and perhaps removed from this one because it's unrelated.
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Feb 25, 2009 15:16:35 GMT -5
I think that we are all allowed our opinions. My personal thoughts go beyond what is on his tv show. I see the ramifications firsthand. I've gotten many an email from owners of pit bulls who say they've tried his methods and now the dog is worse, or behaving aggressively when before it was not. I agree, everybody has a right to their own opinion. I personally like CM. I use many of his methods. They do not hurt my dog, they do not stress my dog or myself. The key to CM's methods is you have to use them properly. So many people just don't. It's not for everyone, I agree and it's def. not for those who don't understand how to do it. Any training method used incorrectly can make a dog worse.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 25, 2009 15:33:39 GMT -5
I think that we are all allowed our opinions. My personal thoughts go beyond what is on his tv show. I see the ramifications firsthand. I've gotten many an email from owners of pit bulls who say they've tried his methods and now the dog is worse, or behaving aggressively when before it was not. I agree, everybody has a right to their own opinion. I personally like CM. I use many of his methods. They do not hurt my dog, they do not stress my dog or myself. The key to CM's methods is you have to use them properly. So many people just don't. It's not for everyone, I agree and it's def. not for those who don't understand how to do it. Any training method used incorrectly can make a dog worse. What techniques of his do you use, if you don't mind my asking? While there are correct and incorrect ways of employing the various techniques Milan uses, much of what he does 'correctly' absolutely causes pain, fear, discomfort and unintended side effects. This is not conjecture or opinion - it is scientific fact. FWIW, when I started training dogs as a hobby (later professionally) circa 1985, everyone trained using the techniques Milan uses. I've used all the techniques 'correctly', and I know what they do, how they 'work', and why they are detrimental to dogs. (The only thing that Milan uses that I haven't used is the dumb "tssst" finger thing and the shock collar, the latter which, even back when I used almost all aversives, I couldn't bring myself to put on my dog. And yes, I went out and bought one and everything - it was actually a no-bark shock collar, not a remote training collar). So the point isn't that there is a 'correct way' and an 'incorrect' way with the correct way being 'ok'. It's that while there may be a text book way of alpha rolling, shocking, kneeing, jerking, or pinning your dog, MANY people (including PhD's, veterinary behaviorists, behavior analysts, and more - in other words, people with credentials, because - let's face it - Milan has none) will tell you - based on science - that these techniques are DETRIMENTAL TO DOGS. The point, really, is why would you choose to HURT your dog to teach him something when there are other affective methods available? And please don't buy into the line that a lot of this stuff doesn't cause pain, fear and stress - as someone who was really involved with Milan-esque trainers for a very long time, I can tell you NONE of them admit the techniques they are using routinely hurt or stress dogs. (I can still hear one of my old trainers insisting that prong collars don't hurt dogs when you jerk on them and when they cry and yelp when they get jerked it's only because they are 'suprised'). Lemme tell you - the reason these things work is BECAUSE they, consequentially, CAUSE PAIN AND DISCOMFORT. Dog stops such and such behavior because of an unpleasant consequence. Difference of opinion is one thing, but it really infuriates me that people promoting these harmful techniques (people like Milan) are refusing to be HONEST with the public and letting them know just exactly what it is they are doing to their animals.
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Post by tank on Feb 25, 2009 17:12:07 GMT -5
It drives me nuts to see people buy into the whole dominance theory. My roommate and her parents who visit often continually try to "convince" me that I need to grab Lucy and roll her onto her back when she disobeys me to establish dominance. These are people who luckily don't have a dog. I told them that if they ever tried that with Lucy I would do the same to them lol. They also seem to think that she is a dominant dog because she won't let me roll her on her back. No, she just gets scared when someone tries to force her to do something she #1 isn't expecting and #2 makes her physically uncomfortable! I personally watch Milan's show every now and again, but not for training tips, to see all the cute pit bulls.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 25, 2009 17:32:07 GMT -5
I personally watch Milan's show every now and again, but not for training tips, to see all the cute pit bulls. ya me too, i just watch to see the dogs, and try to see things that don't make sense
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 25, 2009 19:53:28 GMT -5
The only reason I watch the show is to be better informed. It certainly isn't for entertainment or any other reason. I just wish there were many more times I find myself nodding in agreement rather than cringing or screaming at the television.
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