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Post by emilys on Jan 14, 2009 23:20:09 GMT -5
i still watch his show, its on every friday night with new episodes then, the rest of the week its all reruns... yeah, his cult following is super into him, if you say one wrong thing they immediately ignore you...pretty sad.... the woman i was talking too i was trying to tell her the dog needed more exercise and rules as he got NONE.. yep, 7-8 month old pit and no rules, no exercise, no structure, nothing... free to do what he wanted... super bratty... when i told her he needed at least an hour exercise a few times a day, including mental exercise and obedience work she said, but cesar suggested shock collars for dogs.. i said, no, your dog needs exercise and stimulation.. which i beleive all dogs need exercise and rules.. . I don't think I've ever seen Millan use a shock collar (I'm not saying he doesnt, but I've seen MANY of his episodes and it's absolutely not his main tool. He does use chokes and prongs and of course the weird "bite with the hand" thing). His primary message is EXACTLY what you told the person: exercise, discipline, then affection. That woman wasn't at all listening to him, or hasn't seen many of his shows. I've come to dislike a lot of what he does, and the obsession with putting dogs together with his "pack" is, well, creepy. But you guys are going over the top in your attacks on him. I don't see how you can watch him and say he DOESNT care about dogs and people. You can dislike/disagree with his methods, but I think you're offbase in your criticism
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 14, 2009 23:38:41 GMT -5
I think that we are all allowed our opinions. My personal thoughts go beyond what is on his tv show. I see the ramifications firsthand. I've gotten many an email from owners of pit bulls who say they've tried his methods and now the dog is worse, or behaving aggressively when before it was not.
His public statements which knock those who will euthanize a dangerous dog rather than spend the non-existant resources on rehabbing is irresponsible. So now people are trying to rehab truly dangerous dogs b/c CM "shows" that they are fixable.
He has used shock collars, I've seen at least 3 episodes. The first one he never mentions he is using one and has the remote held behind his back, but to the trained eye, you could see the exact times he zapped the dog.
Another time he used it on a Cattle Dog which chased the families truck on their farm. The dog was incredibly stressed and CM continued to further flood the dog by making it trot next to a tractor. It seems to me that all alternatives are frou frou to CM, that his way IS the only way b/c of the way he openly dismisses positive methods.
The other shock collar episode is where he was trying to get the black GSD to be calm around the cat and when CM zapped the dog, it redirected and bit it's owner in the arm.
The way that he defends his techniques is basically refusing to accept that anything he does is harmful.
His methods for dealing with resource guarding are so off the mark it's not even funny. His handling of dogs is deplorable. This is not fun for the dogs or the owners. It's a travesty that he gets the attention he gets and that people actually listen to him. I feel that my criticism of him is restrained.
His suggestion (or mantra) of exercise, discipline and affection is nothing new. That's what really gets me is that people think he actually came up with this stuff.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that he does which I agree with but in the big (and small) picture, he's causing much more harm than good and we are already seeing the fallout.
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Post by bubsy on Jan 15, 2009 3:21:39 GMT -5
One of the scariest and most concerning episodes I have ever watched actually made me sick. The young, very financially well off couple who had a gorgeous, young Greater Swiss Mountain Dog. The dog was very well trained, reliable to verbal and hand signals. The dog was a resource guarder and was getting worse. CM came to the rescue and proceeded to punish the dog each time he offered the slightest warning and cracked down when he growled. He physically blocked him from his food, pushing him away and "claimed the dog's food". The couple was amazed when the dog figured the routine out and gave up. CM proceeded to further "prove" to the dog who was in charge and give him a job...what better than drafting since that's what the breed was bred for right? So CM hooks up a garden cart (the heavy steel kind) and put a harness (a regular dog harness, not an Xback or drafting harness) and off they go. The wheels make a heck of a ruckus on the pavement, the dog flips out, tries to flee the cart (more anxiety and undue negative experience) and he is essentially flooded until the dog shuts down and accepts the situation while CM sits on the cart pumping his fists in the air and grinning from ear to ear. OMG, that episode made me so angry!!! ARGGHHH! Let's punish and bully the dog around the food bowl, make him more anxious around it...good idea! The cart thing really set me off, though! It takes weeks, months, or more to properly teach a draft dog! Holy cow, the worst thing you could do is hook up some POS cart to your dog and MAKE them pull! I really couldn't believe he thought that was OK...dog is freaking out, which is totally normal...but let's just force him to stay with the wagon and keep moving. You've got to get a draft dog accustomed to each piece of equipment...my friend had her Berners drag around the trace lines on a harness for a while. Then you move up to training wheels..no cart. I felt so awful for that dog.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 15, 2009 15:28:15 GMT -5
Emily, the clip posted at the top of this thread shows him zapping the GSD with a shock collar and the dog freaking out. I feel so horrible for that dog, I just want to reach through the screen, rip the collar off of him, and place it on Milan's neck.
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Post by maryellen on Jan 15, 2009 15:56:46 GMT -5
emily, i never said he doesnt care, i said i dont like some of his methods on large dogs, but that i like how he addresses the owners of little dogs.. i saw the episode where he used the shock collar. while i am not a fan of shock collars, i do know people do use them..
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Post by emilys on Jan 16, 2009 19:37:08 GMT -5
I don't want to be put in the position of defending him, but consider this: if he basically hides the times that he uses shock collars, and doesn't talk about them in the shows or books, in what way is he ADVOCATING for them, as the woman Maryellen was talking to asserted?
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 16, 2009 20:00:29 GMT -5
Using them advocates them. He openly has used shock collars in at least two of the episodes I've seen. The very first which he used one, he did hide the controller behind his back. That, to me, implies that he was not comfortable with blatantly using one at that time.
The issue here is that just like idiots will attempt stunts they see on j@ckass, that is THEIR decision and they are only risking their own bodily harm. Dogs do not have the ability to dictate how they are treated and promoting treatment which causes pain and breaks down trust is neither recommended or effective or helpful.
I know someone who is a huge believer in CM's methods. She is a highly educated, far above average pet owner. But she constantly corrects her dogs and focused so much on maintaining "balance" and pack order.
She owns 3 adult GSDs, one male, 2 females and a medium sized female mix. The dogs are incredibly confused about what is expected, they are well mannered but fight constantly.
The black mix is recovering from one of these fights and the damage done was extensive. The owner also tore her ACL trying to break it up. My friend and I, both trainers have gone to walk the GSDs for her since she cannot.
The dogs are lovely on lead, have some semi-decent obedience but are just all over the place mentally within the home. They will stop on a dime when anyone makes that "TSSS!" sound and almost act as if they are walking on eggshells.
This kind of situation is what irritates me. CM may get results (mostly short lived) but the fact is, people are doing this to their dogs.
I honestly don't care what he says about caring for dogs and people. There is alot to be said about actions.
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Post by bubsy on Jan 16, 2009 20:15:40 GMT -5
I don't want to be put in the position of defending him, but consider this: if he basically hides the times that he uses shock collars, and doesn't talk about them in the shows or books, in what way is he ADVOCATING for them, as the woman Maryellen was talking to asserted? I don't think he's a huge advocate of e-collars, I've only seen one episode where he used one (the ACD car chasing episode). We know that they're in his toolbox of things to use...but he's much more into choke collars...not that I think that's a good idea! I don't immediately think Cesar when I think of e-collar...I think of Fred Hassan...but that's another discussion LOL.
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Post by maryellen on Jan 16, 2009 21:33:57 GMT -5
tonights episode was training wolf hybrids to ignore other dogs.. the female Veda he had a prong collar on and gave her a few hard corrections at his center while she had a leather muzzle on... he also told the owners dog parks are good, but to pick the dog pack at the dog park.. why on earth would you allow a wolf hybrid to go to a dog park???
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Post by emilys on Jan 16, 2009 23:25:59 GMT -5
... he also told the owners dog parks are good, but to pick the dog pack at the dog park.. why on earth would you allow a wolf hybrid to go to a dog park??? the very question I asked myself when I saw a wolf hybrid at the dogpark in NJ where my mom used to live. "What's your wolf mixed with?", I asked the owner. "It's not a wolfdog, it's an American Indian dog", the owner replied. Right, another new scam, this one to avoid laws banning wolfdogs, I suppose...... and this animal was at least half, if not 3/4 wolf. I watched this dog for about a year as it grew. As a puppy, it was quite submissive to the other dogs, but I gradually watched as it got more and more assertive/dominant (can I say that word? lol). A disaster waiting to happen.
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Post by hammer4 on Jan 17, 2009 14:50:43 GMT -5
I must adimtt that I tried CM's methods to train our pup for a short while, i.e. being the calm assertive "pack leader" ect. A funny thing happened over time, I stopped using his methods, and started using the clicker, along with positive renforcment and stopped trying to be the dominate one and started to be my dogs teacher and friend. So far he has responded to the later much better, and is way more relaxed and pays attention much better, although we still have a ways to go.
Anyone watch Victoria Stllwell..? I have never seen her use any of CM's methods.
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Post by bubsy on Jan 17, 2009 14:55:38 GMT -5
tonights episode was training wolf hybrids to ignore other dogs.. the female Veda he had a prong collar on and gave her a few hard corrections at his center while she had a leather muzzle on... he also told the owners dog parks are good, but to pick the dog pack at the dog park.. why on earth would you allow a wolf hybrid to go to a dog park??? I watched that episode last night also....wow...so much of what went on in that show was irresponsible and dangerous
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Jan 20, 2009 19:03:56 GMT -5
While I feel that positive training is one to train a dog. I do not believe it should be the only way we form the behaviors we seek. After joining this forum and doing some more reading I have learned not to rely so heavily on Milan's techniques. So I think a medium needs to be reached. When raising my dog, Rosie, there were, as with any dog: issues. Some of which were corrected through positive reinforcement (e.g. heel, recall). But there were still others that no amount of patient ignoring a bad behavior and reinforcing a good was going to correct. Take jumping for example. Rosie was a pretty bad jumper, and after we had tried every other reward based program, we did something different. And it worked! Imagine your little sibling is bothering you, climbing on you, wanting to wrestle, or to play, or to draw, or do anything else other than what you want to do, and they have physically attached themselves to your waste. After all your yelling, you finally give them a firm, but gentle push, to knock them on there butts. They probably wont bother you anymore. Following similar guidelines, we trained Rosie to stop jumping. When she would jump all we had to do was bring our knee in front of our chest, and she would bounce off, and kurplunk land on her A**. She got the message. Or when she nipped, we you give her a stern no, and grab her muzzle shut until she yanked away. She never nipped or jumped again, unless rough housing. But even then the person was always in control and could end it without being physical. Notice how nothing we did injured the dog, hurt, or traumatized her. They were simply more direct means to an end.
Dogs are physical creatures in the sense that, when playing as pups, they teach each other to soft bite. But if one isn't catching onto the signs of I have had enough, he will most likely receive a nip. What we must remember though is each do is different. Some learn better through repeated praise, others through physical touch. Its the same with people. When we are young we express ourselves physically, but as we grow, we do so through words. So what was corrected with a firm scruff shake as a pup, will only need a vocal command as an adult.
Edit: I just thought I would throw this in here because I didn't want it to seem like you need to use physicality for training only. There is one instance where I use it for my dog's safety. When we are walking off leash. I know there may be some people who say, "well if the dog is off leash then that's a danger to begin with." Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I am always attentive and whenever I see a car coming I make her sit and hold her collar. But that is not the physical part. Where physicality becomes a factor is getting her to stay close enough to me that I can grab her if the need arises.
When first starting to walk off leash Rosie was pretty bad. So i would first tire her out on leash then on the way home, unleash her. In order to get her stay close to me I didn't use treats or any rewards. Instead if she started to go to far ahead I would push on her nose back and downwards, so she was forced to fall back then say "good girl." That is only for the road, however. When we get to places like paths in the woods she is free to go where ever she likes but she knows her commands (which we practice often) like sit and wait/stay. When out in front she never gets more than 20 ft ahead. I also have found that Cesar's method of a close and controlled leash walk is not necessary or even safe. I agree with the controlled part, but close not so much. If my dog is always behind me, and I am looking forwards, couldn't she run out into the road or stop without me knowing. I feel that a couple feet out in front is better as long as the dog knows "heel, sit, and stay." This way I can watch where I am going as well as where she is going.
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Post by emilys on Jan 20, 2009 19:29:00 GMT -5
well, actually: jumping is one of the easiest things to correct positively. Just NEVER reward the jumping up (which is an attention seeking behavior). Turning your back, and/or putting the dog in its crate are 2 methods that teach it that jumping accomplishes nothing. Some people just wait until the dog (finally) sits, and then reward. Similar techniques could work with bratty children.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Jan 20, 2009 19:47:25 GMT -5
well there were rewards, the knee was more just to give her nothing to hold onto. so she would fall off, then once on the ground we would praise her and give her treats but as said, we need to find some middle ground. physicality and then a reward. I also think that dogs have a very good read as to what our intentions are, so often times a push off of the lap or a bump with your knee goes a long way. you should never hit a dog in any way, shape, or form, but often times a touch of some kind followed by a reward can help.
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Post by emilys on Jan 20, 2009 20:41:23 GMT -5
well, pit bulls LOVE physical interaction, so the knee push might actually be a reward. It's hard to physically correct a pit bull as a general rule.. for it to mean anything, you'd have to hit them SO HARD it would be abusive. Anything short of that might just be an invitation to play.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 20, 2009 20:50:24 GMT -5
Oh, I'm avoiding responding to this thread like the plague!!! LOL Not that I have nothing to say but I'm just so sick of sayin' it!!
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Jan 20, 2009 21:44:38 GMT -5
well, pit bulls LOVE physical interaction, so the knee push might actually be a reward. It's hard to physically correct a pit bull as a general rule.. for it to mean anything, you'd have to hit them SO HARD it would be abusive. Anything short of that might just be an invitation to play. perhaps but i think the timing, manner, and vocal reprimand that accompany the "physicality" will be enough of a message. while I believe humans have a fairly good read on dogs body language they have a good read on ours as well. I have tried some of CM techniques, some work some dont. mostly they dont. I hate having to pin, or prob my dog but i think there are other less invasive ways to communicate physically. not domination.
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Jan 20, 2009 22:03:30 GMT -5
I'll say initially (and just because I am so tired and about to head to bed) that I have trained my two "cross-over dogs" successfully and reliably without ever touching them.
I did the whole traditional training with my competetion obedience Rottweilers and by far the methods I use now have gotten me much better results and a much better relationship with my dogs. I guess it depends on if you want a dog that does what you say no matter what or if you want a dog which does what you wish and respects and trusts you.
I have trained dogs in the past much differently than I train now and I had used very physical methods years ago. I'll never go back to that. It's Soooooo much easier and effective to train without physical conact and manipulation!!
Timing is extremely important, motivation is extremely important but an understanding of how dogs learn and how to get them to want to work for you is so rewarding on both sides.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Jan 20, 2009 22:56:22 GMT -5
lol my dog still does bad behavior, but this is probably just the wrong post advocate for physicality. and probably there is a misunderstanding as to the physical aspect. all her tricks and such are done with complete reward base training and as for let's say the "knee method". all it is, is a block so the dog cant get to you. they then slide off i guess the "kurplunk on her a**" part was a bit to much for people to handle. all she learned was that unless im invited there just not going to let me jump on them.
I think i will try the positive training with my aunts dog over the summer, intense boot camp. unfortunately she is a little yappy dog that pees everywhere when people come into the house, idk but i think she's a schnoodle? i have noticed that when i make her sit and she is calm before she sees people, she is less likely to pee. maybe u have some advice on door manners for over active, hyper dogs (positive of course). i do take her for 40+ min walks and intense fetch (up and down hills) but she is still psycho. i think it's becuz my aunt failed to train her properly and had someone else do it and only takes her out to pee (no real walks) except from me only in summer.
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