OK now I need help.

[mayhemkb]

Little upate-
No real change in soiling-but in the touch department-we started to treat Otter as a touch sensative dog. So we would let him initiate all contact and stop all friendly touch on our end outside of a occasional chest rub or by letting him touch us when he is highly anxious by just sidling up to us and resting his butt so he touches our leg for a few seconds. . .He has started lick us! This dog never licked in affection. Now it is not big sloppy kisses-it is more like a quick slurp on the sly but wow!

Hoping to keep this positive trend going. . .

[RealPitBull]

Aug 18, 2009 10:17:24 GMT -5 mayhemkb said:

Little upate-
No real change in soiling-but in the touch department-we started to treat Otter as a touch sensative dog. So we would let him initiate all contact and stop all friendly touch on our end outside of a occasional chest rub or by letting him touch us when he is highly anxious by just sidling up to us and resting his butt so he touches our leg for a few seconds. . .He has started lick us! This dog never licked in affection. Now it is not big sloppy kisses-it is more like a quick slurp on the sly but wow!

Hoping to keep this positive trend going. . .

That is awesome!

Did you, btw, ever try to establish a "safety cue" for Otter?

[mayhemkb]

We did. His safety cue is "Be good." It just doesn't work long term. . .

[RealPitBull]

Just wanted to post this book, as it may be a resource for you:

www.behavetech.com/sdd.html

Separation Distress and Dogs is a positive reinforcement based
workbook for understanding, assessing and changing separation distress
related behaviors in dogs. Written for guardians of dogs who exhibit
distress behaviors when left alone, it presents an easy to follow, yet
comprehensive, behavior change program, including systematic
desensitization and behavior shaping, as well as empowerment training
and relationship rehabilitation. It includes sections for professional
behavior consultants.

The book is small and accessible enough for the average dog guardian
to work through yet it is comprehensive for that purpose. It includes
inserted Professional Boxes to elaborate on principles and procedures
for the more sophisticated reader.

www.behavetech.com/sdd.html

Orders placed through the publisher directly are discounted and all
copies are signed. The price includes shipping.

[mayhemkb]

Thanks-I'll give it a looksie!

[mayhemkb]

More Little Updates-
We are getting good streaks right now. The longest period we had was week without soiling. Yay! He has become a bit more laid back and less fearful during those good times around the house so that is good too.

Of course then we have 4-5 days where has soiled himself everytime we put him in the Crate. No changes in routine, exercise, or feeding. He also acts like he did prior to medication during these times for no apparent reason. (OCD licking, food possesiveness, etc. . .)

Right now we are on day 2 of a good streak.

[mayhemkb]

Ok so after I posted the last update Otter pulled the Jekyl/Hyde act and began licking the carpet with renewed vigour. He became obstinant about going potty outside in the rain/wet grass the last few days. We sat there in the rain for 20 minutes at a time, took walks and he would literally hold it until he was so stressed he was drooling then release. No accidents during this time. He has demonstrated time and time again that he can hold it (unless he has loose stool) for well over 8-9 hours if we are present or not when he is having a good day. This morning after a very sound rest in his bed next our bed in our room. He woke up with us as per normal, stretched, sneezed, then (not per normal)urinated. We went to bed late last night and let him out 2 hours later than normal (we were home all night)and he defecated and urinated at the time. We woke at the normal time (that would =6 hours of rest). The amount of urine was more than if he was marking but not a full bladders worth. HE rufused to urinate when we went outside this morning after the incident. He was in the room with myself and the husband at the time. So it does not seem this is a separation incident.

We have had some long term foster ferrets at home that come out and play with the dogs present. Otter really made leaps and bounds of progress and relaxed a ton with these extra playmates. He just clicked with this group, and I feel like it helped him tremendously to have them interact over the last 2 months. Like he came out of his shell with his current med schedule and these guys changing his routines in little good ways. He has always done well with our 2 personal ferrets too. The last 2 days we have had to take him out of the room with the ferrets as he seemed to get over stimulated or defensive of his carpet licking area. He also began to stalk them instead of play with them. Stalking description-head down, lowered body posture, tail still, body stiff with slow deliberate motions to animal, unbreaking eye contact with animal. His prey switch got turned on. I have no doubts about that. This makes me extremely uncomfortable. The ferrets are a huge thing in my life. I am on the board of the local ferret shelter and volunteer there often. They need 3-6 hours of out time every day. The dogs I have were in part selected because they got on well with the ferrets and could be out and interact with us and them. I feel addtional crating for Otter at this point would not be fair to him since he deserves his time with us too.

This time I am really worried about keeping Otter. The potty issues were/are clearing. He seems to respond well to very little touch stimulation, brain puzzles, and different medications at this point. I am freaked out over the prey switch thing. To have to crate a dog 12 hours or more a day is not a viable option in my mind. It may be a preconcieved notion in my head but I have not met a dog that sees something as prey, be able to be reliable around that thing again. It is not something that can be rehabbed since this is a hardwired response right? Should I be alarmed or am I making a mountain of a mole hill? What happend from here?

[RealPitBull]

Prey drive is a normal and natural dog trait. It's not something that can be erased with training - only managed. Some dogs have more prey drive than others. Personally, I don't recommend Pit Bulls or Pit Bull mixes go into homes where they will be expected to have to interact with small animals like ferrets, rabbits, etc, because those critters are the essence of prey. And Pit Bulls tend to have a high prey drive.

Prey drive can be managed, and dogs can be taught to ignore prey-like animals that they essentially would want to hunt. But the supervision has got to always be there. Would I trust a dog that is stalking the ferrets, even after being taught to 'leave it' , etc? No. Killing one would be too easy and could happen too fast to risk it, IMO.

Do the ferrets have to be loose with Otter is also loose? There is no sort of seperation that can happen?

[mayhemkb]

I understand keeping terriers in general away from small fuzzies in families. We have a pretty strict rule with our ferret shelter adoptions that if a terrier is in the family it must be crated when ferrets are out-or no adoption to that home due to the prey drive thing. Otter came to us labeled Ibizan Hound. Knew that was not the case. He struck us as a Australian Cattle Dog cross with other mix-and when he filled in he became a definate terrier/PB mix. He had been fostered in a home with cats and small critters and we were told he was wonderful with them (they also said he had NO separation issues and was just fine around food). He has been supervised and gave no warning of developing like this-but we always watch since things can change in an instant.

The ferrets need supervision and I enjoy having interactive time with them. Their run area (the only area in our house that can accomodate them) is our living/family room. The house is only 700 sf. I have already worked out having half the ferrets' time out to be when Otter is eating and winding down in the AM so there is no exposure then. They are out 1-2 hours with us and dogs in the PM. Weekends are not a huge thing since Otter can be kenneled for a split time of about 4 hours without issue in my mind. Since we are up at 4:30AM every day for work, we hit the pillow at 9:00PM every weeknight. During the work week that makes me feel terrible about separating Otter from us/ferrets. He is in his crate for 8-9 hours a day and since the work schedules have become a little tighter in the economy we are way pinched for PM time since we get home at 5-6PM so walks, dinner and ferret time eat up a lot. To separate would mean Otter would be crated 10-11 hours daily since he is destructive when left alone out of the crate, and with his separation issues, man. . .

I know all dogs have some level of prey drive. That doesn't bother me. If this were squirrels, or critters in the yard, meh, NBD, these things happen. The fact that he only does it right now to the ferrets, and it just developed with them is my worry. Otter never had any prey drive in the 1.5 years we've had him. He expresses no interest in small fuzzies in the yard, yet. Social maturity is approaching fast but, he always did so well. We never ever leave him unsupervised with the ferrets, or even our other dog. He knows "leave it", "Play nice", and "Ignore it". I know I can get him back into the habit of "watch" but that is a temporary fix.

Your worry is my worry. Stalking and killing even with supervision is too likely/easy if he really has switched on his prey drive instinct towards the ferrets.

All this work and "BAM!" something that would be totally unfair to ask of him. This is occuring during a bad phase in his behavior. But I tell myself that he has really been changing in personality in the last 2-3 months. All in good ways until this. Which isn't bad-but it puts me in a postion to really evaluate and make a huge decision for one party or the other. What are your thoughts?

We've come so far. . .The rescue he came from hasn't responed to any of my emails (they have no phones) since I told them I would not squirt Otter in the face with bitter apple for lifting his lip at us. So I am not getting any thoughts from them. My trainer friend told me that she would rehome in my shoes. My husband is prodding me to do the same right now. . .this hurts. What do I do?

[suziriot]

Not being in your shoes, I don't think anyone can say what is right for your family. However, I do strongly encourage you to try some options before you decide to rehome Otter. I think looking through the discussions in the Training & Behavior section on this forum will be extremely helpful.

Do you know how old Otter is? If he is between 2-3 then he could still be maturing, in which case you would see some behavioral changes. Recognizing the root of his behavior is the key to managing it. Behaviors that may seem inconsistent may actually seem so only because you don't recognize the real cause of the behavior. When one of my males turned 1, he started resource guarding against our other male with toys and sleeping space. He had previously shown no indication of guarding or even mildly aggressive behavior. So we started strict NILF with him again and began doing stricter crate-and-rotate for playing and sleeping times. Now he never displays these behaviors. We were able to manage it because we understood why he was doing these things - he was feeling anxiety and fear over protecting his space and his things. It had nothing to do with dominance aggression toward the other dogs. He just needed us to enforce some guidelines and boundaries, so we didn't put him in a position of feeling stressed or anxious.

I think you should start our by trying to determine the cause of this behavior. It may be prey drive. But particularly because you said that he has not exhibited a prey drive toward any other small animals, it may also be an anxiety issue. The carpet licking might be an expression of his stress and anxiety.

[mayhemkb]

Thanks suziriot,

The carpet licking is an expression of anxiety. He is an anxious little dog who is on 450mg of St John's Wort daily with 5mg melatonin supplemented in for separation anxiety to help him wind down when crated in the AM. Both are doing wonders for him over time with his anxiety. We are making huge leaps and bounds on that end.

We are a pretty strict NILF household and that has brought him very far too. He is also touch sensative and gets overstimulated when petted nondisciminantly. He also gets decent walks but we have to keep free play outdoors down because he will overstimulate himself then and has given himself heat exaustion, and will wind himself up worse. He is a sweet odd duck of a dog. Very weird in his tendencies. He is right around that 2ish age and has been neutered since he was 4mo old.

I agree about finding the root of a behavior. I am looking to several different sources for help right now. I am not a person to surrender easily. I also work in rescue with the ferrets and abhor people who do not give effort to difficult situations to make them work. So you can be sure if anything I will not give in without a fight. I will also make double sure I have not been ignoring any stress signals that would indicate fear during times with the ferrets. It is always worth looking back to square one and giving all reasons extra weight.

My biggest worry, outside possible killing of my ferrets, is that we have just begun to really make strides medicating his separation issues BUT he is not comfortable being on his own or alone in a room. He is a danger to himself alone in a room. Isolating him during the work day AND for an additional 1-2 hours at night is not fair to him, and will ruin any progress we have made with him.

I am skimming the Training Behavior section on and off all day today too. Thanks for the input and your experiances. I learn a lot from personal experiances since they are like mini case studies.

[RealPitBull]

Aside from the prey issue, I just keep having this nagging feeling like there is some physical or neurological issue being missed.
His constant arousal levels aren't normal. I know you are having luck with the St John's Wort, I still wonder if you couldn't get further along with a medication.

There is a trainer named Nancy Williams in Maryland, who is a specialist in canine aggression and specifically medical issues masquarading as behavioral issues. I attended a seminar of hers last year and found her to be quite brilliant. I'm wondering if she would do a phone consult with you? Perhaps she can provide some missing piece of info to help you with this?

www.dogswithissues.com/


The issue with him and the ferrets would be made easier to deal with if the sep. anx stuff were taken care of, is what I am getting here. If you had the ability to more easily keep him in another room while the ferrets are out, etc. instead of continually in the crate.

What do you do in the mean time? I think for the time being, you keep doing what you are doing. There aren't many options for a dog like Otter - rehoming is easier said than done. Sep. anx is a very common reason for relinquishment. This seems to be above and beyond typical sep anx. I think the odds of finding him a home are pretty much slim to none. So in terms of worrying about crating him too long - right now I think you have to remind yourself of the alternative.

Can you practice having Otter out around the ferrets when you are there to supervise, with Otter on leash? Do some clicking and treating with him to break any obsessive leanings (either towards carpet licking/guarding or predatory fixed action patterns aimed at the ferrets). Practice Look At That by clicking and treating glances at the ferrets, sub-threshold (maybe acrsoss the room). So he looks at ferret - you click - and he turns back to you to get the treat. I have found this helps diffuse high-octane or potentially high-octane situations by making a hind-brain response turn into an operant, front brain response. It also eliminates the allure of wanting something you 'can't have'. For instance, you are not telling Otter to "leave it" or "watch me instead of the ferrets", you are allowing him to look and then rewarding his attention back on you.

I forget, have you tried any TTouch and/or Team ground work with him (ie body wraps, ground poles, etc)?

[suziriot]

It seems like you've been pretty on top of all of these issues and know what to look for. I would look into what Mary H. has suggested. I really wish you the best... it's obvious that you really love Otter and that you will do your best for him.

[mayhemkb]

Hi guys. Thanks for the ideas Mary.

I did, in fact, do what you suggested with Otter this weekend. My other dog Boon is very noise sensative so we don't do clicker training with a clicker-but I have been using a command "look at me" as the marker and allowing him to go back to watching them. He was tied to myself with all ferret interactions on his leash. He was exceptionally good about his interactions with them this weekend. We just limited his time with them and made sure he had only positive interactions and ended on a good note before he became overstimulated.

We had been using TTouch on Otter but it was giving us very mixed results depending on his arousal level. Since we are re-educating him to touch TTouch is out until he sees touch as a good thing. It will come back into play, but not sure when. I have not used any body wraps for that reason. I have not done any ground work with him-but could set up time to do that at the horse barn since the equipment is the same. Is there a good "how to" online resource to get me up to speed on what I could do there-I have one book but it is very basic.

I have had time to take the step back and reminded myself that the crate is an awesome option to Otter's other alternative in life right now. So no rash actions on my part will occur. He is really not a candidate for adoption by any normal dog lover in my mind. We have one shelter that is our "last ditch" option that will take in dogs that have issues and provide them with care till the end of days if problems continue and he crosses that bridge. (we are not there yet)

I also agree with your assesment of a possibly neurological issue at play beneath this. I was worried about his OCD type behaviors right off the bat when we aquired him. Thank god the supplements have worked so well on those! But the arousal levels are far more problematic. His issues always seem to be thrown on like a switch. He is either an awesome dog or is doing all these behaviors and being awful, no real middle ground yet. It all seems to center on his arousal level. If we can keep him calm and relaxed he is great-the second he becomes overstimulated we have lost him for some time before he comes down.

Thanks for the referal too.

[erpitrescue]

I might have missed it, but have you done any medical work up on him?
The fluxuating part makes it seem like it might be hormonal or medical related.. thyroid..?

[mayhemkb]

I have not done a thyroid panel on Otter. Bamapitbullmom actually suggested one-but it fell by the wayside during discussion with my resources, and got forgotten. Do'h!

Knowing the Thyroid can cause aggression are there any other signs to help que in to the thyroid. My family has a history of thyroid problems (both hypo and hyper)so I am familiar with what havoc they can wreak-are the symptoms shared between dogs and humans?

[erpitrescue]

I'm not familiar with human medicine.. I only know cats and dogs. Heh. But it can cause aggression, anxiety, weight gain, hair loss, loose stools, limb swelling, lethargy and a myriad of other symptoms in dogs. Dogs are rarely hyper, mostly, they are hypo.

[mayhemkb]

Another Update-
We have not done the thyroid test or the consult with Nancy. (Husband just got his pay cut by 12% so I have had to trim the animal budget by quite a bit). We have gotten the offending foster ferrets out of the house. Otter has been worked with limited supervised access to the ferrets and is doing well. I will never fully trust him with the ferrets around in any way. He is able to be distracted from prey, so that is a great help and he is doing all I expect of him.

Otter was accident free for a full month even with the new routine during Oct. Then in the last 2 weeks with no changes to, well anything around him, he has gone back to his 50% ratio of soiling when we leave. We haven't even moved him forward in his ferret exposure. He has also been acting like his switch was flipped again.

He was a near perfect dog the month he was good. He was calm. He was gentle. He was relaxed and anxiety free. No residual OCD stuff. He was being awesome and balanced. These last 2 weeks he is anxious, acting like he is jacked up on caffine, hyper, not listening, fearful, OCD returning and his pupils seem permenently dialated, just in general he is unbalanced.

I am worried this jekyl hyde thing. I have resolved his being crated for nearly 10-12 hours a day with the other alternative after the ferret incident. I was thinking we had mostly licked his problems in Oct. (I realize there are always some reocurrences esp under stress.)

Sigh. . .The husband has thrown his hands in the air now though with this relapse. I have been given a deadline to evaluate if Otter is balancing out over time. We have until Mid June 2010. That would be 2 years of working with him he would be 3.5. What happens from there if things haven't started looking up has not been resolved. Thoughts? I feel sick about the deadline.

[maryellen]

until you get the thyroid tested he should have a reprieve, its not fair to the dog to put a deadline on him.. prozac for dogs is dirt cheap, its like $16 for a bottle of 10mg pills.. i use them on one of my dogs for her issues but along with a management training course as well. heck i have been working with ruby since she was 3 1/2 months old and she will be 2 in december and i am still working with her on her issues.. its a work in progress but is working better now . you really need to get the thyroid tested because if its something as simple as that a bottle of pills for the thyroid will help out a ton and the meds are dirt cheap too

[mayhemkb]

Understood.

I realize time is ticking here and have argued for the reprieve-but that is why the 7.5 month deadline is there. The husband understands the issue with leveling meds but with the reduced budget I have money to feed the dogs and for immediate vet appointments but not the tests and need to get a bit more stashed away before then.

I understand the work in progress feeling. We have been at this for 1.5 years as well. Otter has shown some improvements as well. We have made many compromises and changed our lives for him on many levels. The thing is I have to respect that my husband enters the equasion at some point with how far he is willing to go. It is no good to have a anxiety riddled dog who has to interact with a person (husband) who is quickly developing an accute dislike for him.

I am not giving up, but have to work fast with little funding.