OK now I need help.

[AmyJo27]

I don’t want to sound like I’m nagging on anyone or anything like that but I just thought I would share a little advice.
My APBT has to have a $500+ surgery (Luckily his breeder is paying for most of it but anyways...) I don’t know about any of you but I don’t keep $500 just lying around.
Because of this (And other factors like having a child, plans on moving within the next year etc.) Gustavo and I decided to open an "emergency" savings account at the bank. We put $100 dollars in it every time we get paid that way if I need to take Boomer to the vet for something unexpected, one of the cars breaks down, or we simply find ourselves short on cash we have something to fall back on.
If you don’t have the money to take your dog to the vet there is also a thing called Care Credit which is just like a credit card but for medical bill (Including vet bills) here is a link for more info on Care Credit and other financial aid!

therealpitbull.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bethebestguardianucanbe&action=display&thread=630

Hope this helps and once again I hope no one takes this the wrong way! I’m just trying to be helpful.

[mayhemkb]

No offense taken.

We do have a emergency fund that just got depleted between Otter (Continuing treatment)and the ferrets (one has adrenal cancer and IBD-so his meds and diet changes have skyrocketed in the last few months) Boon the BSD has been good. We have been taking out faster than putting in the last few months with the budget cut. So I have some cash to get him in but the test is out of reach right now. He should have the test done late Dec early Jan. I know if there is a marked thyroid or other issue brought up by the blood test the husband will be more flexible the deadline. If we have to just switch his meds up again (ie go on prozac etc. . .) he will not bend the deadline.

[mayhemkb]

Ok so here is the update.

A lot has happened since Nov. I will start off by saying Otter is safe from being given the boot. His thyroid tested normal. We changed up meds on him yet again and we discovered an odd quirk about his anxiety and related behaviors. He also had a change in diet to help as well.

First off the drug info. Otter was placed on an addtional anti anxiety supplement (OTC so no vet visits needed to re up the Rx). Otter in on a synthetic Tryptophan (5HTP) recommended in Dr Dodman's research. He had his St Johns Wort taken away shortly but his OCD behaviors went through the roof so the SJW was added back in at a lower dose to help his OCD issues, and he gets just one meletonin pill a day when we leave in the morning now to help relax him initially in his crate. This regimine is having great effects on his anxiety and OCD issues.

The diet change involved cutting back on the amount of raw prey based model food and going to a more BARF like diet that includes veggies to help with some digestion issues and behavioral issues. This has been for the better as well.

We discovered by accident that he does very well in an enviroment without other dogs. We have nondog owning friends who watch him while we are out of town. He has never had an accident there since this issue has started. There is not much difference in their schedule and lifestyle-except they don't own another dog. With hindsight being 20/20 we realized some (most) of Otter's past indiscretions in the home, and other peoples homes, outside the crate had to do with using feces (in nearly all cases) to mark where their dog slept or our dog slept. We have had him stay over at a few dogless houses, and at a house with another dog over the holidays and during the last few months. No accidents in dogless homes. Accidents in the dog homes. Now he is NOT DA but something about other dogs triggers anxiety in him. We are starting precautions to make sure to limit his dog contact outside of established friends.

Otter is far from perfect but is doing a heck of a lot better. He can still have an event send him over the edge anxiety wise and it will take him 1-3 days to recover (His OCD comes back and he soils his crate during these "relapses"). He needs to have a strict routine we have to follow with him everyday or the stress will trigger an anxiety "relapse". My biggest worry about him right now (and believe me it is not pressing but in the back of my mind at all times) is what happens if he experiances an event or trigger that sends him into an anxiety loop so severe he cannot overcome it in our household?

So things are on the up and up with Otter.

[valliesong]

So glad to hear Otter is doing better!

[AmyJo27]

Ok so Boomer seemed to be doing ok...But...He bit Gustavo yesterday (Actually breaking the skin). Boomer was in his crate and when Gustavo was about to take him out, he lashed out.

I think he is resource guarding his crate. What do I do now? I have to crate him when Im not home, I don’t overly trust him. I have no idea what to do at this point.

He has quite guarding everything else, he is doing great but the crate is his weakness.

[adoptapitbull]

Did he reach in to grab him out, or did Boomer bite him as he was leaving the crate? If he felt threatened when Gustavo reached in, it could have triggered his fight or flight. I'd make sure to not reach in, rather give Boomer a treat for entering and exiting the crate when you ask him to.

[AmyJo27]

Gustavo did not reach in. Boomer was coming out and Gustavo had his hand on the door ready to shut it behind him (So Avery wont go in it) and Boomer turned and bit.
He is funny about his crate. Im hoping there is something I can do without taking it away.

[AmyJo27]

Ok, problem solved!!!

I got a plastic crate and put his wire one away. I don’t really think he likes the plastic one too well but oh well...If he is going to be an *ss he will have to go without! Now that the crate thing is resolved I think everything will be fine.

He has been doing SO well (Up to this situation)! When its time to go outside to potty, I do not even have to say sit to leash him, he already is sitting...same with meal time. He is doing good!!! But, The crate HAD to go! The wire crate gave him a “power” that he does not need.
Now he is kind of skeptical about the plastic crate but I can touch it and not get warned. He doesn’t like the sound his nails make in it though. Tough Noodles Boomer!

[loverocksalot]

I just got to reading this dont know how I missed it. So we figured he is resource guarding. You will have to work on this his entire life be a part of regular routine. Dont lay off as he can quickly go backward. Glad you figured to change the crate. However I would still do some kind of trade thing for in an out of crate. Like pick a treat just for crate in and out. I know you are worried about him because of the history. Hope he continues to improve. I hope some of the more experienced read this and give you help. I think it has been getting overlooked cause it is old thread. Maybe put update in the title or something.

[RealPitBull]

Feb 16, 2010 0:55:58 GMT -5 valliesong said:

So glad to hear Otter is doing better!

Ditto, and again I just have to say, I admire so much what you are doing for this dog! MAJOR KUDOS TO YOU!

This is just such an interesting case to me, and it is really interesting to hear about the St John's Wort, the melatonin, and the 5HTP and that all these things have had a positive effect on Otter's major issues. I am not averse to using meds if warranted, but using natural remedies is always a wiser choice, IMO. So I am glad you were able to work with him without the use of drugs.

[mayhemkb]

Another update here.

We've been continuing everything from the last update treatment wise. We have had a few snags. Like-

Otter has appeared to develop food allergies that necessitate a rotation diet and the addition of kibble. He cannot handle any raw foods at this time and cannot handle straight kibble so we are doing a lot of cooking to supplement his diet with the kibble.(explosive diarrhea if we do not) GI upset adds stress.

Otter continues to suffer from his anxiety loops with any change in schedule, or handling. They have become more frequent, and he is getting more reactive to outside dogs and people. No aggression just fear and regression. He has a very short time where he can cope with visitors then after that he has his submissive smile on and tail tucked. He'll later vomit and often soil the next few days. All and all we have him controlled, but things indicate he may have another source of stress causing his anxiety we haven't controlled for or we'll need to play with his meds again in the near future.

Other than those snags, we have had him stay with his favorite people who always watch him for us on and off again. (Bleeding wedding season) He is like gold there. He is happy and comes back to us 100% relaxed. He has no accidents there and can play and go on walks without the same over arousal issues he has in our home and neighborhood. He is a different dog there. The biggest difference there-no dogs in home. It makes me sad to see that difference in him and feel guilty we can't get him that way.

Thanks Guys!

[RealPitBull]

So I just learned about a new herbal product called Calm Shen by Herbsmith. (Erin from Sunrays told me about it and said it works great! ) I am wondering if this would be a good adjunct to the St John's Wort? I'm fairly certain that it can be used with what you are giving him now, although I would certainly double check with the product company. This is a Chinese medicinal product.

Here is the website: www.herbsmithinc.com

[maryellen]

ok so lets be open minded for a bit, since he does so well with the babysitters and doesnt show any of his behaviors there, is it possible that he might be better off living with them? sometimes, its very possible for a dog to need to be rehomed for the right reason.. not saying you are bad owners, but its possible maybe something in your house is triggering him, and at the babysitters its actually the better place for him? its seriously something to think about, if he doesnt show ANY of those behaviors with the other people, and comes back happy and relaxed and only acts out in your home maybe you should think about seeing if the babysitters would adopt him.. yes i know its hard to do, but sometimes we have to do what is best for the dog.. no matter how we feel about it, but maybe he is better off with the babysitters permanently?

Other than those snags, we have had him stay with his favorite people who always watch him for us on and off again. (Bleeding wedding season) He is like gold there. He is happy and comes back to us 100% relaxed. He has no accidents there and can play and go on walks without the same over arousal issues he has in our home and neighborhood. He is a different dog there. The biggest difference there-no dogs in home. It makes me sad to see that difference in him and feel guilty we can't get him that way

[mayhemkb]

Between your message, a gut feeling on my part, observations, private discussions, advice from friends, and the whole Mick, Hope, Will thing on Patricia McConnell's blog I have come to that conclusion as well Mary Ellen. Our other dog Boon has begun to avoid contact with him 90% of the time even when in the same room and that kills me too. The problem is the babysitters cannot have a dog right now because their landlord only permits them to watch Otter-they cannot have a full time dog living there. So unless they have plans to move I am stuck. I could return him to the rescue but they will not return any of my calls and their trainers are the ones who told me to intially squirt him in the mouth/face with bitter apple if he growls or lifts a lip to us when we were working on Otter's resource garding. That would not be in Otter's best interest.

That's kinda why I have been hanging back here since I am feeling like sh*t over the whole ordeal since now we have most of his issues under control-but it is like the happy light that made him so cool has left him and I am stuck in a very rotten place because I know it is our home that is triggering it.

I will look into the Calm Shen Mary. Chinese herbals have worked phenominally with the horses I work with and I think this would be the same. . .

[maryellen]

ok what if the "babysitters" take him as much as they can to "babysit him" ? like if they take him for 4 days at a time..... technically thats babysitting right? does their landlord go there all the time? how would they know he was there full time? maybe if the sitters can watch him 4 days a week it would help you to figure something out.. is there any reason why the landlords wont let them have him full time? can they be reasoned with?

do you have any other dog savvy friends without dogs who can help out too maybe? like sitters house to dog savvy other non dog owning friends right now??

as far as Boon, maybe do a crate/rotate with him and otter when otter is there, so that this way both dogs dont have to interact with each other at all for now until you figure something out?

and dont feel like a sh*t either, sometimes 4 eyes are better then 2 and at least you found out what it could be...

[mayhemkb]

Boon is claustrophobic so the crate rotate thing can't be a crate We do have gates I have been utilizing to minimize contact-but that has just made both dogs miserable, but it is workable for now.

My dog savvy friends are trainers, good ones too, and they suggested I Euth or rehome only with full disclosure and a lot of research. They did not want Otter on their homes.

I am going to float the idea to the babysitters and see what their reaction is, and what they want. I'll post later in the day either way. . .

[maryellen]

ok since boon cant handle crates, then double gates maybe? give him a super duper chewy bone or kong frozen with goodies to keep him occupied only when he is rotated so that he associates rotating with super good stuff.

hopefully the sitters can help more somehow..

[mayhemkb]

We have spoken with the babysitters (it took awhile so I apoligize about the delay.) Their landlord lives down the street and they would not feel comfortable housing Otter without permission to do so. They are considering moving (they told us they were discussing it before we approached them) but not for a year or so. They wanted to move primarily because they want a dog. They have not spoken with us about their thoughts on possibly taking on Otter as that dog. We are not in a hurry so we are not really pressing for a quick decision either. I would rather they give the matter a lot of thought anyways.

We have the "crate" and rotate thing down since Otter has had past issues with our ferrets so there is a natural rotation going on anyhow-plus we have figured out how to keep Boon happy while being placed in another room. Boon's primary need was getting away from or limiting his exposure to Otter via walking away or going into an inaccessible area. Since there is no outright aggression between the two we just use the ferret barrier rather than the dog gates that keep the dogs totally separate with no contact. This keeps Boon in the kitchen when Otter is not crated with access to the basement and he can choose to walk away from Otter and not be followed. They may interact through the barrier (again there is no aggression) and Boon can be few feet from the couch where my husband and I hang out so he doesn't feel too left out. At night we just have gone back to leashing Otter next to the bed on a shorter leash so he has no access to Boon if he moves away from him so Boon can control his exposure to Otter. This is keeping Boon happier but bothering Otter a little-but some extra attention appears to quell that.

Otter's anxiety right now is lower than his worst points but is up from from his levels in December-Februrary. He has a low-moderate level licking of the floor occuring when upset or trying to calm himself. He is soiling his crate 1-2x a week. We have finally found a homecooked/raw combo diet that has worked with him for over a week at this point and he is putting on weight again so good and bad things happening for him. . .

[mayhemkb]

Haven't heard from his babysitters yet. But have come to the conclusion that they would pretty much be the only place I would consider rehoming him to unless we stumbled upon a new dog savvy friend who has a situation similar to the babysitters and wanted to take him in. There is no safe place for him otherwise. I would rather keep him safe as long as possible with an acceptable anxiety level and Euth than toss him back at a rescue and know he would be just as (if not more) stressed and euth'd after he became to muchto deal with. (Since he leans OCD when stressed even the no kills will euth when he harms himself without control.)

[michele5611]

Have you gotten a chance to try the calm shen yet?