OK now I need help.

[mayhemkb]

My husband and I adopted a ACD/PB mix in June of last year. He came to us from a foster situation at a rescue that took him from a shelter after he had been found wandering as a pup. He was 6mos old when we got him and neutered already. We walk 3 miles or so 4x a week. He runs with our other dog until he literally drops at least 5 days a week. We have to be very careful because he will run until he overheats. (Except in the winter then we have to work really hard to keep him moving). He has always been a very quick to learn dog and is nearly as realiable as our 5yo Belgian Sheepdog with his commands. He is raw fed, and on a NILF program. We have had issues with separation anxiety, and food gaurding, but recently we have had OCD like behaviors start up. He has had some changes in his behavior that began with some backsliding a few months ago. I can only pinpoint 2 triggers for the overall issues-either social maturity creeping in, or we lost 2 of our ferrets in Feburuary, March-so the house hold was stressed.

Several things we have been working with him on.

One is a problem with "stress elimination". He suffers from mild to moderate separation anxiety. I am on a very good behavioral list online that deals specifically with SA. We have used floral essences, DAP, good old fashioned exercise, food puzzles and several herbal calming agents. None of those had any effect-the puzzles worked well but he has a very sensitive GI and most frozen or tough to get at treat toys either cause him to defecate excessively, and since he can literally tear a kong to pieces, or break up marrow bones and they are a danger to him unsupervised. While we can leave him alone in his crate for up to 4 or 5 hours at a crack now-he still has weeks where he will defecate or urinate in the kennel in under 30 min even if he has just been out and done so before we leave. We have been using behavior Modification in the form of desensitization, and Independence training along with 3mg of melatonin when we leave him. This has helped but after 8 months we have been on a plateau with regression.

He has always been food possessive to some extent and we have instituted a NILF program which has helped but again in the last 3 months or so he has degraded. We always got the freeze with lip curl if we approached while he was eating his dinner (if he was in his crate we got full out growl snap charge the door). He is a gulper and rarely takes more than 30 second to a minute to eat his food. We had some digestive issues with him and with his elimination issues we have settled on a raw diet after trying several kibbles and homemade diets. We serve meals frozen to slow him down enough to draw meals out longer than 10 seconds. Recently he has begun to emphasize with a growl if we dare approach and touch him during his dinner. I can deal with that and have been rereading my McConnell and Dodman-but. . .

He has begun to lapse into several OCD like behaviors. He gets stuck in this arousal loop that feeds him during play or exercise where he becomes so obsessed with his toy he will bark continuously if it is not thrown or we stop. We have to stop him from playing (sadly) so he does not overheat or hurt himself. (Thank god for the cold-that was the only thing that would make him take notice of other things-like his cold feet). Sometimes we need to take a half hour time out type deal to get him to relax and calm down. He has also begun licking obsessively if not playing. He does not lick himself. But he licks the ground where he is laying, his bed, pillows, carpet, etc. . . We have been working on distractions but he goes back to the behavior as soon as he finishes his distraction, be it food, or a game, or "work". The reason the licking bothers me is that is ties into anxiety (SA), and he obsessively licks after his meals with more vigor and recently that has become tied to his food possessiveness-he has begun to freeze, lip curl, growl, and even snap if we try to distract him during this after dinner licking.

We have not pulled out the big guns from the pharmacy yet. My next step is to go to our vet for his wellness check and discuss options for medication to reduce his anxiety, and even out his moods. We will do some blood work to be sure his OCD is not seizure related. We are going to continue along our behavior modification training and ramp up the NILF program even more.

Any thoughts or tips here?

[bamapitbullmom]

Thyroid panel and send bloodwork to Hemopet (there's no charge):

www.hemopet.org/services.html

You didn't mention which group list you are on but I'd also suggest you join and repost this exact post to Truly Dog Friendly on groups for feedback. I'd be most interested in Terry Pride's response, she's AMAZING! But there is a plethora of highly skilled trainers including Barbra Brill, Pat Miller, September Morn, Ali Brown, etc.

Video tape the dog's various behaviors, including a camera while he is in crate and you leave the house. You can post these to Youtube and share them with other trainers to get feedback.

I believe that you have done pretty much everything that any trainer could ask for thus far and it is possible that a new behavioral modification plan paired with meds is the next step.

You didn't specifically mention how you've been working on his resource guarding (RG) issues but one thing I'd like to suggest is to discontinue feeding him in his crate. He's only going to continue to practice aggressive/defensive displays there so just eliminate dinner in crate.

Jean Donaldson has a great book out called Mine! which you can find at www.dogwise.com.

I feel that you've done the research on working on RG but your challenge will be that you feed raw. For those of us who do, we understand what high value raw meat & bones are and even a soft dog which has never guarded their toys or kibble in the past very well may impressively guard a found chicken thigh.

So what do you trade-up for? I've had super responses using squeeze cheese, whipped cream the types in the cans. It seems that they become not only conditioned to the smell, taste and texture but the sound and sight of the can plus sharky dogs are less inclined to be rough with the nozzle and it slows them down (difficult to quickly clean off squeeze cheese from the roof of the mouth).

Freeze dried salmon and baked liver works well, too. I've used the extra smelly stuff to toss towards an eating dog, conditioning them associate an approach brings extra goodies.

You may need to modify his diet in order to effectively work on this because it does him or you no good if he inhales his dinner in 10 seconds.

The only other option would be to be highly proactive to ensure he is never in a situation where he feels the need to guard. I'd say that's not very responsible considering his age, however.

[mayhemkb]

Thanks for the reminder about the thyroid test! I will add that in with his blood work at his wellness check in a few weeks. I will check out the group you reccommended on too.

We have taken him out of his crate for feeding about 6 months ago and that helped for a time. All we would get was the freeze then gulp whole move. Then it has been creeping back up in intesity. Now he has combined the food possesiveness with his after meal lick. I have tried the liver treats and freeze dried tasties before. I have found nothing he will trade up straight for-not yet anyhow-no reason to give that fight up there are plenty of goodies out there.

I forgot to add that his body language during dinner outside of the freeze to snap progression is he will always choose to back himself into a corner while eating. He hunches up, avoids eye contact-but has dialated pupils. His commisure is always closed and tight.

We have no RG issues with anything but dinner. (We can give treats to each dog together and even give RMBs out together with no issues) He was possessive with kibble, the only reason he was not a threat on kibble was because he could have his entire ration down in under 10 seconds (I lived in fear of bloat). We did start freezing his raw rations because he could fininsh a raw thawed quarter in 30 seconds. Frozen food takes him about 2-5 minutes depending on what he is eating. He has a terrible time with his GI. Any kibble products or red meat in any variety does not cause loose stool-but he will defecate 5-7 times a day. Hence the switch for the SA related soiling.

We have always kept toys away unless we are playing-then they go away again. He has to perform for the right to play and we are very good at no physical affection unless he has performed or worked in some way. For dinner he has to perform a down stay and several other commands before getting his food and we have worked past the freeze lip curl before eating. Now we had him to the point where we could touch him and ask him to drop it for a millisecond (with gradual desensitization and extra hard work on commands)-but he slid backwards after started to do the lick thing.

He is a very clingy dog. I would descibe him as a furry tumor with eyes. When we hang out he wants to touch you at all times and if you are on the ground he's in your lap. We don't let this occur unless we have done some work and it is for short periods of time. We also make him sit away from us so he cannot touch us when we hang out unless we invite him. He is constantly asking for physical touch-but he gives side glances of whale eye with ears flat and commisure tight if we touch. He arches his body away in a u when asking for touch and puts his chin up in the air and stops any tail wag he had when approaching even if he touches us. Then whole time he does this he will look you in the eyes and not break gaze unless he looks at a hand with the sidelong glances of whale eye.

Are there any drugs that I should steer clear of, or conversely request? What could I do about the RG in regards to the after dinner lick? Would a spring pole and/or a flirt pole wear him down faster without as much of a beating to his joints?

I love the little guy but he is throwing me for a loop here.

[bamapitbullmom]

Whew! You just described a dog that would come no where close to passing a behavioral evaluation in a shelter! Boy has he lucked up with such commited and capable owners!

Furry tumor...ha!

His body language that you describe indicates IMO a dog with a lack of confidence and some possessive tendancies. The leaning, appeasement behaviors, curling away (pushing into you), placement of body during eating (full-on facing person with back in corner) direct eye contact (that one is a bit unnerving).

Anyhoo...I'm not the go-to girl for meds or vet stuff but I do know that there is some information out there regarding sep anx protocols but your personal vet would likely be the one to really speak to about that.

As for the spe anx, have you worked on practicing the things you do when you leave gradually desensitizing him to the whole ordeal, thus lowering his stress levels?

Things such as picking up your keys, then setting them down, putting on you shoes, gradually building up to the point of going through the motions for very short periods of time, building up to actually leaving for five minutes then coming back in remaining matter-of-factly the entire time, without giving him attention until he is calm? Work on leaving for longer periods as he seems to progress.

Do you leave him with frozen stuffed kongs or something else to help him occupy his time? Is he reliable at all out of the crate? I've known some dogs who exhibited severe anxiety when left in a crate and through purely experimenting we found that they were completely calm and reliable left loose in a section of the home. It wasn't the seperation that caused the anxiety, it was the confinement (even with conditioning).

As for the RG, I'm wondering if you'd see improvements if you broke down his meals into several, small portions throughout the day instead of a couple or once a day. That may help his digestion, as well. Is he on probiotics? Are you feeding a barf diet or prey model or your own type of thing (I do my own thing, prey model but with variations as well as some kibble)?

Has he always guarded his food against humans?

[mayhemkb]

I know, when I saw him and did my own assesment (novice trainer, and BS in Behavior) I was he made it through to adoptables. He is such a gentle doll. I think when we get his dominance posturing and anxiety taken care of all will be well.

We have done desensetization and have made progress until about 2 months ago. The we have slid back. He is great about departures now, and arrivals. I would never peg him for being SA since he is quiet and rarely restless we had been going through GI issues with him so we had chalked it up to slow potty training-but a key part of his case history comes from when he had been with us about 3 months. My husband and I were working in our room, and he was getting in our hair so we took him outside and let him potty, he did both, and we then put him in a small room adjoining ours and closed the door so we could get the job done. Within the 15 minutes it took use to finish he barked once and sat still all but 2 minutes, and he still urinated and defecated in that time because he couldn't SEE us. So he still has these issues if he is sectioned off in a small but open area of the house. (We tried this right away since our Belgian Sheepdog Boon is one of those who freaked in a crate but is right as rain out of one while gone.)



We have done frozen kongs and buster cubes. We even did frozen marrow bones. Those do distract him-but most of the frozen treats cause extra stool, and he still has issues and soils once he is finished. He can destroy a black kong in a week or two and hence those are dangerous then, and he can kill a buster cube in no time. The marrow bones are not challenging enough and he finishes fast and he can crunch then down to. (I am at what this little 45 pound dog can do with his jaws).

We tried probiotics but they rendered neutral results. He is odd because he rarely get loose stool-but if he gets something that bothers his tummy he produces a lot of normal stool. (If he gets beef meat or bones we'll come home to 15-20 logs of poop in the crate in one sitting-waaayy more than normal).

We are feeding a Franken Prey diet. He does well on chicken, turkey, and pork. We are working on getting some rabbits as well. He can eat it with ease but we have to be very careful about his bone intake as he proccesses that poorly. So we do supplement with eggs and shell. Of course we give him rec bones but that cause the mondo huge load of feces issues. I also have kibble on hand for training and NILF stuff as well as for our ferrets (they just won't eat meat!). We are feeding him 2x daily and might be able to pull off 3x a day but when we did this initially he would get too hungry between meals because they were so small and we were feeding him 2-3 pounds of food a day-this way he is getting one pound or so daily.

As long as we had him he has RG his food from humans-funny he never says "boo" to our other dog. But we separated them to avoid future problems or battles.

[mayhemkb]

Ok I kinda blew a small gasket here with the advice one of the girls at the rescue got from her trainer on this situation after forwarding my Email which is nearly CC'd from the first post above. Not because the trainer asked the wrong questions but on the advice that I spray OtterMan with bitter apple for lip curls. I also question umbilical training in a dog that needs more confidence and independance training-but that can be from a rotten interpretation of my message or focusing on the licking problem alone.

Of course I laughed at the comment that the trainers Rotties can't kill a kong. I have met Doxies that can kill the big black kong. . .

***
That poor pup (attached email). Hard to know exactly what they are doing... are they using bitter apple with the licking and lip lifting? Is the leash on in the house (with him dragging it)? I should be. Are they doing the leave it command, rapid fire commands to redirect. etc. I would umbilical cord a lot - don't let him get into his self-stim cycles. Is the dog on the furniture, bed, going through doors first etc.? All this could contribute to his attitude over food, licking areas etc. He perceives he has quite a bit of clout in the family. Are they ignoring him completely for the 1st 15 min when they come home and before they leave the house to help with SA. Are they desensitizing him to the comings and goings? I don't like that he is regressing in certain areas especially the food situation.
Even my Rottie's couldn't destroy a kong (make sure it is a true kong and not the psuedo-kongs)- Otherwise Buster cubes or treat balls. Wish I could help. It seems to be a complex issue.

[loverocksalot]

this is part of an email sent to me from my trainer to help a pup overcome food guarding.

(email from my trainer)Instead of holding her bowl, this week hand feed her and stroke her. Next week hold the empty bowl and add one handful of food at a time to it. The following week repeat that but stroke her just before you add the food to the bowl. The following week put the empty bowl on the floor and add one handful at a time. The following week repeat but stroke at the same time. The following week put the bowl of food on the floor for her. Approach and add something super-chicken, hot dogs, liver, cheese, etc.
Don't rush things. This can take up to 6 months or a year to overcome.

My experience....

Now what worked for my dog. "trade" command has worked to stop the guarding of really yummy chewies like bully sticks and marrow bones. And yes they can destroy Kongs. which is why I use marrow bones instead and fill them with frozen goodies. but first he had to learn to trade to be nice with marrow bones. I would sit by him do a trade. begin to pet him while he chewed the yummy bone. touch the bone I pretend to chew the bone then I give it back so forth and so on. BTW a big lob of peanut butter was the quickest and most favorite trade to offer in a pinch. Always worked.

SA is hard. I had a doberman here for a couple of months who had the same poop on the floor if I went out for 2 min. she was terrified of the crate. so I used one of those plastic travel kennels and first put her bed in the bottom with no top on it. and rewarded her once she was comfortable there I put the top on but pushed all the way back put the screws to hold it in place no door on it of course so it was only on a few inches every couple of days I moved it up. In about 2 weeks time I had her in there. Amazed at the success. Soon put the door on and would only have her in there so i could go to the bus stop to get my son. And not have to clean up poop. Because she feared the crate I used it very little. I found her safe space was to be in the kitchen only using chairs to block it. then she felt safe and did not poop and pee. She could easily jump those chairs maybe she felt nothing could get in.

[RealPitBull]

Just throwin' some initial thoughts out there......

So, the only thing that is indicating seperation anxiety is urination and defecation when you are away? I don't know that I'd call that seperation anxiety. It might be an issue of stimulus control, where the dog has been self-rewarded so often for eliminating when someone's not around, that it just happens now. Related to the fact that he has stomach issues, and has presumably had incidents where he couldn't 'hold it' and was forced to soil his crate, etc.

Soiling as soon as the person leaves sight is very common in issues of house training - not saying this is just a house training thing, but I haven't really read anything that is indicating *to me* a dx of SA is accurate.

When I think of SA, I think breaking out of crates, non stop barking, bloody paws and broken teeth. What else is happening besides urination/defecation?

Are you working with a regular vet, or a behaviorist? I would definitely go the route of veterinary behaviorist, because beh mod drugs may very well be called for here (in true SA, I think they are almost always warranted).

The interesting thing is the way he initiates physical contact, then throws stress signals your way. I don't quite know what to make of that. How does he respond if HE touchs you? What if you let him touch you, but didn't touch him? How is he in general with being touched, i.e. in a casual, passing way during day to day interaction - not in an 'I'm feeling clingy, pet me please' way?

The RG stuff - I agree dealing with this while feeding raw is going to be tough, but I would take him through a Jean Donaldson type protocol (handfeeding, CC'ing approaches to the bowl, etc).

[RealPitBull]

Oh, I wanted to add. A GREAT list for analytically breaking down behavior and figuring out the way to best address it, is the CLICK-L_ABAT list on . Seriously filled with some really great minds. I second Jessica's recommendation of Truly Dog Friendly, too.

[RealPitBull]

Apr 23, 2009 10:10:20 GMT -5 mayhemkb said:

Ok I kinda blew a small gasket here with the advice one of the girls at the rescue got from her trainer on this situation after forwarding my Email which is nearly CC'd from the first post above. Not because the trainer asked the wrong questions but on the advice that I spray OtterMan with bitter apple for lip curls. I also question umbilical training in a dog that needs more confidence and independance training-but that can be from a rotten interpretation of my message or focusing on the licking problem alone.

Of course I laughed at the comment that the trainers Rotties can't kill a kong. I have met Doxies that can kill the big black kong. . .

***
That poor pup (attached email). Hard to know exactly what they are doing... are they using bitter apple with the licking and lip lifting? Is the leash on in the house (with him dragging it)? I should be. Are they doing the leave it command, rapid fire commands to redirect. etc. I would umbilical cord a lot - don't let him get into his self-stim cycles. Is the dog on the furniture, bed, going through doors first etc.? All this could contribute to his attitude over food, licking areas etc. He perceives he has quite a bit of clout in the family. Are they ignoring him completely for the 1st 15 min when they come home and before they leave the house to help with SA. Are they desensitizing him to the comings and goings? I don't like that he is regressing in certain areas especially the food situation.
Even my Rottie's couldn't destroy a kong (make sure it is a true kong and not the psuedo-kongs)- Otherwise Buster cubes or treat balls. Wish I could help. It seems to be a complex issue.

I don't agree with ANY of the above. Jeez! Sounds like the typical Millan-esque, dog-is-trying-to-dominate the human mindset.

[mayhemkb]

Ok I found the Truly Dog Friendly group- I am not a professionally practicing trainer-so I can't join according to their intro. I'll have to look into the other groups.

Yeah the SA thing has me going in a loop too. The only reason I lean SA is because he soils when he cannot see us, after he eliminates in under 15 minutes, and the rest of his anxiety behaviors. What happens in the crate is almost like it is forced out. (very small puddles-or very small stools, unless there are GI issues involved). The only indication of SA is the elimination and occasional barking. He can go for 8-10 hours in the house with us in sight and no issues with soiling (We do have an occasional GI issue while we are present and in sight, but it has been since Dec. He never learn proper emergency signaling until he was about 8-9months old and we had him for 2 months or so.)

Rather than SA could he be freaking out if our other dog upstairs is barking at something and eliminating as pure "stress elimination" ?

Body language- When he intiates contact he will come on in that curve away ears loosely back. He looks directly in you eyes and will bump his head under your hand or arm. But as soon as he touches he looks away, the tail stops moving, and he positions himself at an angle to the side and gives whale eye to the body part touching him. Then he folds the ears tighter. He always looks away and licks the lips, but he wants to touch and be touched. He has also NEVER licked us. I no some dogs just don't, but I haven't met a happy PB who won't. His body language throws me.

In the casual passing way, as ships in the night, he will block you (Stands in way and swings butt at you) if standing and if you bump him (as in just keep on walking) he darts-but not off to the side straight in front until he hits a bed area. If he is sitting or laying down he will do one of 2 things-he will sit up and follow you, or he will sit up and watch if you are not that far away. His ears always go back in a submissive way when he catches your eye, unless he wants something (like the food I am cutting up) Then he'll either bark repeatedly, or grumble. Ears erect, direct eye contact with antsy sitting. When he is swinging his butt in a block he'll arch it up when he makes contact like a cat getting its tail base scritched.

RG wise-we have gotten him to the point of gently taking food from our hand and he has not regressed-just cannot reach in and get a relaxed response.

And with the trainer it was very hard to formulate a non snarky response since the girl who went to the trainer so clearly was trying to help.

[bamapitbullmom]

www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=10

[mayhemkb]

Ok so I took what you guys recommended and ran with it. I also went to a friend who has been training in a purely positive manner (she is on a first name basis with Patricia McConnell) and had her watch Otter and give us some pointers. (She and others are miffed by his wanting touch and petting-but the way he feeezes when the touch is reciprocated-we are working under the assumption he is touch sensative right now) The rescue refuses to reply to me since I dissed their trainer (oh well. . .) I also visited the vet.

So since April I have worked independance training with renewed vigour, NILF, and worked normal old obediance mental work with Otter (per the trainer friend). Per the Vet we added a higher dose of Melatonin when headed out the door, and added St John's Wort 2x daily. The thought was the "real" anxiety drugs will only take down instances of the behavior just as this could do so give it a try. . . I also have added more roughage (ie veggies) into Otter's raw diet.

Results have been mixed but better in general. We have gotten Otter to begin a trade game with low value food, and to at least look at us without freezing while eating high value food. His food aggression is way down. His OCD/licking issue has nearly gone away with the St Johns Wort. Also the St Johns Wort has taken his reactive behavior down. This unmasked (or at least that is how I am reading it) his underlying behavior which appears to be Anxiety. He is anxious and unsure of himself. He has begun to show more sepration anxiety typical behaviors now. Barking after being crated, the separation elimination (ever present ), shadowing us around the house, less mixed body language. The addition of veggies has really agreed with his system more than straight raw protien sources, and he is not bouncing off the wall as much-that could be him leaving the puppy realm too though.

Now we are really working on boosting his confidence and independance. But even after revisiting housetraining as a refresher (just in case) and the adjustments we are having a hell of a time with the separation elimination. That one behavior is enough to send us into madness. Everytime you get home (Or even the times you need to run into the kitchen for a second where he can't see you and poops he in the house) and he is smeared in feces, or lying in his urine, or both in his crate really wears on you, with daily cleanings and baths. No matter how much you try to put it out of your mind the subtle mannerisms of body language cannot all be covered up.

What hints do you guys have? I am part of a SA list and their advice appears to be, well, this is normal and acceptable as long as they aren't hurting themselves. He is 100% comfortable in his crate always has been (he just freaks after he realizes he is alone 5 min later)-and we just do not have the time to go through a desensetizing treatment where no one leaves him alone longer than he is comfortable for until he can be worked up to work times, and we just cannot fund a suitable doggie day care. Again we don't give up easy, and know we cannot expect him to turn around overnight-but I want to enjoy him rather than get crabby at him in the back of my mind when I get home. Heck even mental relaxation advice for me could help I don't know.
Thoughts?

[RealPitBull]

Hey there! Thank you for coming back and posting an update. I really applaud all you are doing for Otter. He is such a lucky dog to have found you - not many people would be putting up with this stuff.

About the crate soiling......he does it immediately when you leave, or when you first show up? Does this JUST happen in the crate? What happens if he is loose in the house, and you are out of sight?

I'm not sure what to suggest if desensitization isn't an option for you. Have you tried DAP (dog appeasing pheromone) ? This could give him some sort of comfort. And at least give you an edge.

What sort of crate is Otter in, and what sort of bedding?

[mayhemkb]

Jul 23, 2009 13:11:37 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

Hey there! Thank you for coming back and posting an update. I really applaud all you are doing for Otter. He is such a lucky dog to have found you - not many people would be putting up with this stuff.

About the crate soiling......he does it immediately when you leave, or when you first show up? Does this JUST happen in the crate? What happens if he is loose in the house, and you are out of sight?

I'm not sure what to suggest if desensitization isn't an option for you. Have you tried DAP (dog appeasing pheromone) ? This could give him some sort of comfort. And at least give you an edge.

What sort of crate is Otter in, and what sort of bedding?

Hello back! ;D

Well. The soiling in crate occurs within 5 min to 1 hour of us leaving (always after being outside and relieving himself just prior) usually preceeded now by an upset "barkbarkbarkbark!" for the period of time before the soiling. He then gets fearful and is quiet and subdued until we get home. This happens about 40-50% of the time now-but since he gets a midday break for 1.5 hours (he has 3-4 hours in crate on either side of the break.) and is placed in his kennel again it may be 50% of confinements but happens daily.

It is not just in the crate. It occurs in the house if he loses sight of us and is stressed. He is a garbge eater, and a chewer when bored so we have a barrier system in place that keeps him out of the kitchen (but allows him the rest of the house) when we are cooking and the garbage is exposed. He is not allowed to run free at night-but is not good in the kennel at night and he does get up during the night and wander randomly chewing things even if not getting into the garbage or if he has access to a proper chewing toy. We compromised by putting him on a 15 ft lead that allows for freedom of movement at night but keeps him in a safe area he won't get into trouble in.
So it is typically situations of hooking up at night and running to check a door or turn off lights, or he is by the barrier to kitchen and I have to grab something from downstairs and might be gone for more than 5 min with laundry or the phone etc always left right at the barrier. . .when separation accidents occur in the house. They are few and far between maybe one a month.

He is not safe for unsupervised free roam-but we have tried larger rooms for confinement while gone and the same results occur with and without our older dog.

We have tried Rescue Remedy, various FE, and DAP before with no results. I may give the DAP another shot now that we have more of an edge off his behavior. Not sure yet though.

He is housed in a Plastic Pet Carrier type crate. We have tried it in different rooms of the house, covered and uncovered. No change. He doesn't try to get out. We tried smaller and it was bad. He has the room to layout, stand, and turn in his current one.

I will clarify the desensatization comment-we have taken it as far as we have time for less quitting our jobs and making sure to work in increasing increments until he can be left for the time frame needed for crating during a typical work day. He is relaxed and happy during the whole leaving prep proccess. HE even runs into his crate and will run out and back in and out and back in barking to get me to give him his special leaving treat. He works on that in a relaxed fashion, and is relaxed until 10ish minutes (sometimes 1/2 hour) after we leave the house. Whenever he is done with his treat for about 5min.

He has no bedding in the crate since he soils and chews/eats it.

[RealPitBull]

Ok, thanks for elaborating, I have a clearer picture now.

Are you working directly with a veterinary behaviorist, and/or would you consider something like clomipramine for this issue? Anxiety like this is SO difficult to deal with for reasons like you've stated - you can't quit your job and just hang around practicing departures all day. Drugs + behavior mod are usually required in serious cases like this.

Are you noticing an improvement in the issue? I mean, I understand that having to clean up every day is a big problem, but at least if you are seeing a bit of improvement, that indicates a light at the end of the tunnel.

Sorry if I am asking you to repeat anything, I haven't gone back and read this whole thread as a refresher.....

[mayhemkb]

Jul 23, 2009 15:12:16 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

Ok, thanks for elaborating, I have a clearer picture now.

Are you working directly with a veterinary behaviorist, and/or would you consider something like clomipramine for this issue? Anxiety like this is SO difficult to deal with for reasons like you've stated - you can't quit your job and just hang around practicing departures all day. Drugs + behavior mod are usually required in serious cases like this.

Are you noticing an improvement in the issue? I mean, I understand that having to clean up every day is a big problem, but at least if you are seeing a bit of improvement, that indicates a light at the end of the tunnel.

Sorry if I am asking you to repeat anything, I haven't gone back and read this whole thread as a refresher.....

I am working with a vet-but not a veterinary behaviorist (none in my area). I am open to other drugs-we just took the St Johns Wort leap with the thought that it has similar effects to the lower doses of clomipramine the vet has used in the past-and I can get it OTC. Otter has been on it for 2 months and we recently upped his dosage. I was told, and have read, that at least 2-6 months is what I should give it timewise before deciding to switch. I am seeing improvements so I will give it more time.

It has wiped out his OCD issues that had become tied to and exaserbated his RG issues. Otter is overall more calm in the home. He is showing less mixed body language and acting in a more readable dog way.

With his odd want to be touched but his fear of touch making stress reduction tough, we do see a light. But the soiling has my husband at a point where he is about ready to give. What holds him back is knowing Otter would be most likely Euthed and that we would have a HUGE black mark on our record for future adoptions. My husband is good with dogs, but he is not nearly as in control of his body language when soiling occurs. (the anxiety gets worse and repeats when kenneled again then) He also really thinks Otter is a good sweet dog-but again fear and soiling does not bode well for surrender back to the rescue.

I am not as close to breaking as the husband and have more experiance with these things. MY big hang up is the crabby resentment (frustration) I feel in the back of my mind causing issues down the road, and the fact that options are running out (though definately not exhausted) in a bad time economically to get rid of a "bad" dog, to a non PB rescue, that deserves his chance because he is SUCH a good dog.

I always joke about Otter being like a clumsy nerd of a teenage boy trying to win a girl. He does every thing right. He takes her to the right place, and they click in a good way pschologically and romantically. Then he ruins it by getting nervous and throwing up on her good dress in a horror story she repeats for years to come.

[RealPitBull]

I always joke about Otter being like a clumsy nerd of a teenage boy trying to win a girl. He does every thing right. He takes her to the right place, and they click in a good way pschologically and romantically. Then he ruins it by getting nervous and throwing up on her good dress in a horror story she repeats for years to come. [/qyote]

Oh my LOL Poor Otter. But great description, it very clearly captures the personality of a good dog with some difficult issues.....

I wish I had more suggestions for you. This is such a difficult issue to work on. It's time and effort and patience. There is definitely no magic pill (which I know you understand). I understand you've had success with the St John's wort, which is great. Just keep the meds in the back of your mind should the St John's wort end up falling short.

I'm sure you've gone through all the usual short term seperations, crate for short periods of time, work for attention, etc.

[mayhemkb]

Yup! We are on NILF, and have him comfy crating for short periods. I guess I just was looking to see if we missed anything in our approach, to look at different methods, and just get some support.

He is doing better on the upped dose of St Johns Wort too so I am keeping my fingers crossed. I really like the forum here-Its so balanced. Thanks for the double check on my homework. I'll keep the thread updated.

[RealPitBull]

Jul 28, 2009 9:52:45 GMT -5 mayhemkb said:

Yup! We are on NILF, and have him comfy crating for short periods. I guess I just was looking to see if we missed anything in our approach, to look at different methods, and just get some support.

He is doing better on the upped dose of St Johns Wort too so I am keeping my fingers crossed. I really like the forum here-Its so balanced. Thanks for the double check on my homework. I'll keep the thread updated.

Yeah, I mean, you really seem like you are covering all bases. You are doing a great job, it sounds, even though I know it's difficult living through it. From an outsider's standpoint, you are doing everything you should.

Please keep the thread updated, and I will post anything I think of or come across that may be of help to you.

Glad you like the forum!