Positive training lecture

[loverocksalot]

Oh yeah I did ask to borrow that book. Also Maryellen was talking with my dad today he is doing a small event over at dog dome next month. He also mentioned about tracking club does a starter seminar. Want to go with me when they have the next one?
I should go by and meet Dory. I will send her an email see if she is willing to let me sit in on a class. Utopia cafe is that in what seems to be Upper Greenwood Lake? I have been to that deli and never noticed dog training facility. SO I been missing out on something close to home. Might be good for my mom to go to a class with Dory.

[maryellen]

yes i will go with you for the next one, i started tracking training with my old gsd when she was young but stopped and want to try that with sadie. yeah dory is near upper greenwood lake, she is close enough for you and your mom , she used to be in hawthorne with the dog training academy there then when the owner died she opened her own school, she is also a member of Bright and Beautiful therapy dogs too..

[johnr]

Jan 4, 2012 14:36:51 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

Kathy Sdao is one of my training idols. Here is her article on dominance:

www.kathysdao.com/articles/Forget_About_Being_Alpha_in_Your_Pack.html

Dominance in wolves and other social species is not a myth. Just one of many, many, many modern studies that make crucial use of the concept and indeed find physiological correlates of it:

www.montana.edu/wwwbi/staff/creel/wolf%20gc.pdf

However, I like a lot of the rest of that article. Some thoughts ...

I would strongly play UP the parental role vs classic alpha angle, for at least the following reasons:

1) First, JUST tossing the notion of dominance away and then going straight into the "rainbows and lollipops" arias that many "positive" trainers are wont to sing comes dangerously close to losing the message that you DO set the rules and, if need be, enforce them. But whereas parental rule setting and rule enforcement is meant to be loving, nurturing and meant to help the young get on successfully in the world, alpha dominance battles are grim zero sum games meant to vanquish and often to drive the opponent out of the pack. And dominance battles are mostly same sex affairs specifically over breeding rights. I don't know about you, but I don't look at any of my dogs as sexual rivals. ;D And of course, we set and enforce rules precisely because we want to KEEP our animals, not drive them away. Similarly, when I work with a dog at the shelter, I am not trying to keep the animal, but I'm also not trying to drive it away and say to hell with it. I am rather trying to instill behavioral norms in order to set it up for success rather than failure in its eventual new home.

2) Another known fact about dogs' divergence from wolves is that dogs are highly neotenous both in form and behavior. That means that they retain juvenile traits into adulthood. (Interestingly, a lot of human evolution is also based on neoteny.) So yes, in a very real sense, a sexually adult, even geriatric dog is in many ways psychologically more like a pup or adolescent wolf, reinforcing OUR need to develop and maintain once again a more PARENTAL role.

3) While I've always considered most of the "dominance rules" certain trainers are always belching, eg eating first, gong through doors first, etc, etc, laughably ludicrous, some things the article cites negatively have worked well for me in revised form. Consider muzzle grabbing. If done aggressively, you're a dope who is looking to get bitten. But once there is trust, affectionate muzzle holds CAN be a gentle but sometimes needed reminder of who sets the rules and who follows them. And as with ALL SORTS of direct handling techniques, it is best to "slide" into this from a standard head pat or ear scratch. And never do it in anger!!!!!!!! That is both creepy and dangerous and will tend break rather than build the bonds you need.

4) There are other "dominance rules" advocated out there that run directly contrary to ethological findings, eg the one that says in tug games, the alpha must always win. There are lots of issues with tug games and it IS possible to cause way more problems than you need doing them wrong, but in fact, when wolves play tug, dominant wolves almost invariably let subordinates win. This is not a particularly obscure observation and the fact that so many trainers claim to follow the dominance model but then invert rules like this willy-nilly has long since left me convinced that a lot of their stuff is totally unscientific and has mostly to do with their own "manhood issues".

5) Alpha rolls are the stupidest thing ever. Don't even get me started.

6) One separate matter touched on by the article: Dogs as happy camp following scavengers whose protective alarm signals made them generally welcome amongst the humans they hung with is an evolutionary tale I've always been attracted to. Much more realistic than the idea that people who never lived with or trained animals before started robbing the cradles of momma wolves and magically somehow knew how to make a domestic animal out of what they stole. And note that where there are feral dogs, very few revert anywhere near back to a full lupine predator lifestyle. Most adopt a scavenger lifestyle in close proximity to humans, just like their ancestors did. Dogs have been our symbionts a long, long time.

[johnr]

I've been cogitating on this whole "dominance is a myth" myth, and what I suspect is the following: In the captive studies from the 1930s, the stressed dominant individuals spent a lot of time taking their stress out on subordinates by physically knocking them around. This study served as an erroneous basis for the notion of dominance used by severe force trainers. Later ethological studies in the field of course showed that harsh physical expressions of dominance are actually very rare and generally limited to same sex sparring during breeding season and most of wolf behavior is convivial and cooperative, but there still ARE dominant and subordinate individuals. Somehow the latter got garbled from "what we once thought we understood about dominance is a myth" to "dominance is a myth".

I consider this very important. Dogs do give off clearly dominant or submissive signals. If a dog you are trying to work with greets you with dominance displays, you have a very different sort of situation than you have if they greet you with submissive or even basically neutral signals. If you are going to work with dogs, you had better at a minimum learn to understand what you have. When I have a dog prone to putting out dominant signals towards humans, I severely limit who can handle him or her and make very different sorts of rescue plans than I generally do. These dogs are fairly rare, but they do show up. Let's not be naive.

On the other hand, those who greet every little butt wiggler with their OWN alpha ape dominance displays are big weenies. You can quote me on that!

[loverocksalot]

I totally get you John. And that is why I never completely understood it is a myth. But using dominance to the extreme to make a dog subordinate is not effective with dogs. I find an equal balance works best and that balance depends on the dog. Funny thing is that raising good members of society (human children) is very much the same.
Anyway I discovered this with Rocky. He was a happy go lucky jumpy puppy who seemed to fear nothing. After the trainer grabbed his collar I learned what a soft dog is. Rocky is usually care free and submissive. At times he tests the waters and a little touch of, for a lack of better words "pack leader" or "wolf" is in order. For example when he does not come when called because he is being care free or selective deafness I have to put on the growl show teeth "now" command. And he comes but that is followed by a pet a good boy and a cookie. Or the getting out of hand when playing and have to firmly say enough.
The weenie who took my little butt wiggler by the collar and choked him for jumping up to say hello please play with me, Did not stop him from jumping at all but it did create a puppy who snapped and one time growled and barked in fear when I tried to pull him out of a fabric crate that was collapsing on him. That one time seriously did some damage.
BTW this did not stop his obsessive jumping and greeting which was pretty bad. it just had him snapping if he was hiding under bed or behind something and you reached for his collar. So what I did was block off bed so he could not get under there. and desensitized the collar issue. The jumping well that went away by rewarding for keeping all fours on the floor. It took a while but it eventually phased out. however, now he sometimes jump on people who have the smell of dog. He seems to know he can get away with stuff with dog people. So I think for this lecture I will share my experiences and give out information people can read and research for self. Let them make the decision and hopefully they will find that using methods from someone on TV who has to put a disclaimer not do this at home, to Think hard about that. That man has been bitten on tv. Imagine what has happened when the camera was off.
Now what about Stillwell, should I refer to some of her stuff. There are some things I have seen on her show I did not like. For example the time they tried to desensitize a dog to strangers. I think it may have been a pit bull. They put a man in one of those bite suits to protect him and had him come in the house and touch the owner. (if i remember the dog had an issue with men touching the owner) The dog attacked the guy in the suit. I thought that was a ludicrous idea and really made the dog look bad. I would not be surprised if some guy came in my house in a suit like that and touched me that Rocky would be very unsure about that. Or he might think its a big toy. Wow I think I just got way off topic here. But its good stuff.

[loverocksalot]

BTW anyone know of comparison videos where someone shows a dog being trained using choking etc and someone using positive ways and the results of each. A shelter I have volunteered at uses a trainer that I cant stand to even look at. I mostly with the Rottis and major issue dogs. Who after a while are walking nicely by her side. The shelter people believe in her and think positive does not work. I think the reason is positive takes more patients as the results are not instant. However I think the results are long lasting without damage. I would love to see video of a dog trained both ways.

[johnr]

Yes, your story about Rocky is one of a horrible misapplication of extreme force.

[loverocksalot]

Thanks all can you share the renowned trainers that I should list for people to go to their websites and books.
Right now I am trying to think if I left any good ones out.
Turid Rugass
Suzanne Clothier
Paul Owens
Karen Pryor
Jean Donaldson
I am probably spelling names wrong too.
And how do I answer the person who is going to bring up Cesar?

[pitbullmamaliz]

Jan 8, 2012 20:43:57 GMT -5 loverocksalot said:

Thanks all can you share the renowned trainers that I should list for people to go to their websites and books.

Patricia McConnell

[RealPitBull]

Jan 4, 2012 18:07:40 GMT -5 maryellen said:

yes i will go with you for the next one, i started tracking training with my old gsd when she was young but stopped and want to try that with sadie. yeah dory is near upper greenwood lake, she is close enough for you and your mom , she used to be in hawthorne with the dog training academy there then when the owner died she opened her own school, she is also a member of Bright and Beautiful therapy dogs too..

I don't think Dory is a positive trainer. I could be wrong......I went to a CAT seminar at her old place a while back. But I'm fairly certain she is kind of like a "balanced trainer". Just an FYI to CA.

[loverocksalot]

Jan 9, 2012 12:36:01 GMT -5 RealPitBull said:

Jan 4, 2012 18:07:40 GMT -5 maryellen said:

yes i will go with you for the next one, i started tracking training with my old gsd when she was young but stopped and want to try that with sadie. yeah dory is near upper greenwood lake, she is close enough for you and your mom , she used to be in hawthorne with the dog training academy there then when the owner died she opened her own school, she is also a member of Bright and Beautiful therapy dogs too..

I don't think Dory is a positive trainer. I could be wrong......I went to a CAT seminar at her old place a while back. But I'm fairly certain she is kind of like a "balanced trainer". Just an FYI to CA.

She just emailed me and said I can drop in anytime I want no apt necessary She has new classes on Wed for the next 8 wks or so, I might pop in so I can see what she is doing now.

[maryellen]

[loverocksalot]

First video so cute. I think I will use that.
The second one I can use for self. Is she keeping the treat behind her opposite leg? And what are those noises she is making.

[maryellen]

i have no clue CA, i got those off another forum i am on in the training section for you

[loverocksalot]

Oh did you watch second video? it is interesting. But probably too advanced for the group of people attending.

[maryellen]

no didnt watch it lol sorry

[loverocksalot]

Well watch it.

[maryellen]

ok watched it. i think she had the treat in her hand and she is probably making squeeky noises with her voice

[maryellen]

i like her style. this other video she did uses a clicker

[maryellen]

i think if you look on youtube for compulsion training you should be able to find some