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Post by emilys on Jan 9, 2012 20:07:01 GMT -5
dominance exists, in the sense that the alpha gets first crack at what he/she wants. Only rarely does a dominant animal attain that status through violence (in chimps, which can be very violent with each other, a mean alpha may find his troupe mates plotting against him). But in the wild, it is RARELY fatally enforced. Wild predators avoid fights (even over mates) because getting hurt = getting dead, for a hunting animal. Most "fights" are displays of power and skill, and the weaker wolf gives in, submits or leaves the pack. Of course there are exceptions and wolves DO kill other wolves. But it's not routine. That's Meech's message about "dominance". Dominance is earned, not physically asserted, and it's enforced by the nondominent wolf voluntarily submitting.
The whole dominance thing IRT to dogs has led to more stupidity than just about any training "message". I agree with JohnR of course that we need to pay attention to a dog that wants something you have and gives off danger signals. I would call that possessiveness rather than "dominance" just because of how confused that word has become
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Post by emilys on Jan 9, 2012 20:35:28 GMT -5
BTW anyone know of comparison videos where someone shows a dog being trained using choking etc and someone using positive ways and the results of each. A shelter I have volunteered at uses a trainer that I cant stand to even look at. I mostly with the Rottis and major issue dogs. Who after a while are walking nicely by her side. The shelter people believe in her and think positive does not work. I think the reason is positive takes more patients as the results are not instant. However I think the results are long lasting without damage. I would love to see video of a dog trained both ways. Bad Rap has some stuff on prong collars on their website someplace, and I've seen comments from Donna defending them on the FB page, when someone notices how many of their dogs wear them... |
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Post by loverocksalot on Jan 9, 2012 22:23:56 GMT -5
Hmmm yeah and AFF has a flyer which showing the different types of collars etc. does RPB have a similar flyer? If not could we try to make something similar. I could give it a shot. Attachments:
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Post by loverocksalot on Jan 10, 2012 7:39:50 GMT -5
What about Victoria Stillwell? Should I bring her up?
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Post by loverocksalot on Jan 10, 2012 7:52:39 GMT -5
BTW I just put this book on hold from Library. Along with some of her other books that were available. Should be here in a few days. www.patriciamcconnell.com/product/how-to-be-the-leader-of-the-pack Patricia McConnell- How to be the leader of the Pack and have your dog love you for it. This little quote just caught my eye- Dogs Need Guidance ... Just Like Kids do! Being a benevolent leader is NOT the same as "getting dominance" over your dog! Anyway I could buy it on amazon for 3.95 and I still have prime free 2 day shipping. Is this book worth buying? I realize it is just a booklet. But I am wondering if it covers the message I want to get across. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jan 10, 2012 9:47:09 GMT -5
Hmmm yeah and AFF has a flyer which showing the different types of collars etc. does RPB have a similar flyer? If not could we try to make something similar. I could give it a shot. I have a handout on proper use of the head collar (which I almost never use anymore). Mostly I use buckle or martingale collars and sometimes Sensation Harnesses for training. These are really simple, easy to use tools that take pretty much no time at all to acclimate the dog to. Like ANY training tool, they have to be used properly and are mostly just a means to keep a dog safe while you teach new behaviors. The tools themselves do not train the dogs. RPB has no handouts on "proper" use of prong or choke collars because we believe the best use is NO use at all. |
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Post by johnr on Jan 10, 2012 9:48:30 GMT -5
dominance exists, in the sense that the alpha gets first crack at what he/she wants. Only rarely does a dominant animal attain that status through violence (in chimps, which can be very violent with each other, a mean alpha may find his troupe mates plotting against him). But in the wild, it is RARELY fatally enforced. Wild predators avoid fights (even over mates) because getting hurt = getting dead, for a hunting animal. Most "fights" are displays of power and skill, and the weaker wolf gives in, submits or leaves the pack. Of course there are exceptions and wolves DO kill other wolves. But it's not routine. That's Meech's message about "dominance". Dominance is earned, not physically asserted, and it's enforced by the nondominent wolf voluntarily submitting. The whole dominance thing IRT to dogs has led to more stupidity than just about any training "message". I agree with JohnR of course that we need to pay attention to a dog that wants something you have and gives off danger signals. I would call that possessiveness rather than "dominance" just because of how confused that word has become Oh, there's possessiveness and other aggression issues, but there are also some dogs who generally assume that they are #1 or, more usually, #2 behind the one person in the house whom they respect. What went off the skids is lunkheads confusing this real and gravely serious but generally RARE problem with every single misbehavior issue, or even perfectly fine behaviors that are totally meaningless, like walking ahead of you. I mean, really???? Every dog I've ever walked has generally walked ahead of me and NONE of them, even the dominant-prone ones, were dominant over me. Overgeneralizing is a serious logical offense and the "everything is dominance" crowd have been as egregious in this regard as just about anyone I can think of. But calling everything non-dominance is another case of overgeneralizing. It takes only a little bit of work and good sense to get this right. There's no good excuse not to. Calling dominance a myth will in the end, like all untruths, cause more harm than good. Lots of ethology and learning theory is getting totally screwed up by both sides in the trainer wars. Just saw another video in which another "expert" totally misused the term "learned helplessness". More on that some other time. Some day I'll have to write "Canine Ethology and Learning Theory for the Biggest Goddam Gang of Idiots of All, ie Celebrity or Wannabe Celebrity Trainers and Animal Welfare Donation Mill "Experts", ie Pinheads" |
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Post by johnr on Jan 10, 2012 10:01:59 GMT -5
dominance exists, in the sense that the alpha gets first crack at what he/she wants. Only rarely does a dominant animal attain that status through violence (in chimps, which can be very violent with each other, a mean alpha may find his troupe mates plotting against him). But in the wild, it is RARELY fatally enforced. Wild predators avoid fights (even over mates) because getting hurt = getting dead, for a hunting animal. Most "fights" are displays of power and skill, and the weaker wolf gives in, submits or leaves the pack. Of course there are exceptions and wolves DO kill other wolves. But it's not routine. That's Meech's message about "dominance". Dominance is earned, not physically asserted, and it's enforced by the nondominent wolf voluntarily submitting. The whole dominance thing IRT to dogs has led to more stupidity than just about any training "message". I agree with JohnR of course that we need to pay attention to a dog that wants something you have and gives off danger signals. I would call that possessiveness rather than "dominance" just because of how confused that word has become Oh, and Emily is spot on correct about physical expressions of dominance being avoided in nature. Even a small paw wound can kill you if you have to chase down your food, eh? So selection strongly favored those packs whose members weren't constantly clobbering each other. So most dominance "competitions", as it were, involve either pure display behavior or highly ritualized combat where winner AND loser are likely to walk away as unscathed as possible. And that IS a valid lesson from nature. If I had used idiotic Cesar Milan style "jiu jitsu" moves on some of those rare but real truly dominant dogs I have known and worked with, I would have gotten killed. A big, fast GSD with long teeth and powerful jaws won't be impressed with an alpha roll, even IF you could even do it in the first place, which is extremely unlikely with a truly dominant dog of any size or athleticism. Rolling over is a voluntary submissive move. Pushing a dog over is not a "dominance' Move, but a fight move and lots of dogs fight quite well from the bottom. Total insanity to even think about this with a true dominant. These guys are just pushing submissives and neutrals around brutally and gratuitously. No, dominance is a PSYCHOLOGICAL trait, and the one and only way to work with a true dominant is to gain his or her respect. You WIN them to your side. You don't VANQUISH them. |
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Post by loverocksalot on Jan 10, 2012 11:32:56 GMT -5
Hmmm yeah and AFF has a flyer which showing the different types of collars etc. does RPB have a similar flyer? If not could we try to make something similar. I could give it a shot. I have a handout on proper use of the head collar (which I almost never use anymore). Mostly I use buckle or martingale collars and sometimes Sensation Harnesses for training. These are really simple, easy to use tools that take pretty much no time at all to acclimate the dog to. Like ANY training tool, they have to be used properly and are mostly just a means to keep a dog safe while you teach new behaviors. The tools themselves do not train the dogs. RPB has no handouts on "proper" use of prong or choke collars because we believe the best use is NO use at all. Well I dont have a head harness and I have not really used one so I plan to mention it but not show how to use. And the Prong or choke I also was just going to explain but that I do not use them and why. |
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Post by loverocksalot on Jan 10, 2012 11:42:56 GMT -5
So What do you all think of this
My name is Carolann (intro) etc.
How am I an expert? Well I am not a training expert. But I am a Therapy Dog handler, My Dog holds Canine Good Citizen, American Temp Test and Therapy Dogs International titles. I occasionally volunteer at local shelters and I am a volunteer with The Real Pit bull a non for profit organization that promotes and educates R + training.
Today I will share my experience and what worked for best for us. I assure you The things you learn about how I handle my dog, is safe to do at home with your dog at on a daily basis.
I am thinking of adding this as well...
The things you see on TV that have disclaimers do not try this at home, I advise you really consider that disclaimer.
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Post by johnr on Jan 10, 2012 15:52:45 GMT -5
So What do you all think of this My name is Carolann (intro) etc. How am I an expert? Well I am not a training expert. But I am a Therapy Dog handler, My Dog holds Canine Good Citizen, American Temp Test and Therapy Dogs International titles. I occasionally volunteer at local shelters and I am a volunteer with The Real Pit bull a non for profit organization that promotes and educates R + training. Today I will share my experience and what worked for best for us. I assure you The things you learn about how I handle my dog, is safe to do at home with your dog at on a daily basis. I am thinking of adding this as well... The things you see on TV that have disclaimers do not try this at home, I advise you really consider that disclaimer. The only thing I'd change is spell out R+. People aren't likely to know what this shorthand even sort of means. It's too trade-jargony. And yes, I only recently became aware of the "Don't try this at home" disclaimers on Milan's show. (I've never watched the show and had only seen a few clips, but have looked at more of late.) Those disclaimers certainly ARE worth pondering! One hedge, however: I use VERY gentle methods to win trust of severely fearful dogs that others find unapproachable, but NOTHING other than just staying away from the dog is perfectly safe. I would like to make some videos of what I do in the hopes that it might help some professionals and serious amateurs do a better job. But I wouldn't want just ANYBODY approaching these sorts of animals. So I'd also probably put some disclaimer on. It's tricky when you are putting on any sort of demo involving aggressive dogs, regardless of why they are aggressive or how you are handling that aggression. Sue Sternberg went around teaching people to provoke aggression in the name of temperament testing and had to write disclaimers that using her techniques all but meant begging to get bitten. I found that really weird and even more alarming than Milan's disclaimers. |
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Post by adoptapitbull on Jan 10, 2012 16:05:34 GMT -5
dominance exists, in the sense that the alpha gets first crack at what he/she wants. Only rarely does a dominant animal attain that status through violence (in chimps, which can be very violent with each other, a mean alpha may find his troupe mates plotting against him). But in the wild, it is RARELY fatally enforced. Wild predators avoid fights (even over mates) because getting hurt = getting dead, for a hunting animal. Most "fights" are displays of power and skill, and the weaker wolf gives in, submits or leaves the pack. Of course there are exceptions and wolves DO kill other wolves. But it's not routine. That's Meech's message about "dominance". Dominance is earned, not physically asserted, and it's enforced by the nondominent wolf voluntarily submitting. It's also important to bring up self-limiting behavior that the wild animals display. If each battle was an "I'M GONNA KILL YOU!" battle, few wolves (for example) would be left. Fights are expensive to the animal. If it lives, it's hurt for a long time. If it's dead, well, it's dead. Not every battle is a fight to the death. Dogs do this, too. Granted, a Pit fight is more intense by nature, but even so, not every "dominance" fight is a fight to the death. Humans do it too. If each time Jim and I argued, we got out the shot guns, well, we'd probably only have argued once  ...(and I would have won...muah ha ha ha) |
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Post by loverocksalot on Jan 12, 2012 13:50:05 GMT -5
So What do you all think of this My name is Carolann (intro) etc. How am I an expert? Well I am not a training expert. But I am a Therapy Dog handler, My Dog holds Canine Good Citizen, American Temp Test and Therapy Dogs International titles. I occasionally volunteer at local shelters and I am a volunteer with The Real Pit bull a non for profit organization that promotes and educates R + training. Today I will share my experience and what worked for best for us. I assure you The things you learn about how I handle my dog, is safe to do at home with your dog at on a daily basis. I am thinking of adding this as well... The things you see on TV that have disclaimers do not try this at home, I advise you really consider that disclaimer. and I am also going to say something along the lines of this article as I feel the same way for the most part. I have to read it again as I read it real fast and wanted to share it here. talentedanimals.com/blog/?p=664 |
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...(and I would have won...muah ha ha ha)
I look forward to learning much here