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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 18:50:09 GMT -5
Kim, honestly, I think you are overthinking and reading something into what I wrote that isn't there? It seems you have an issue with two words: increasing and large. I never said breed specific attacks were increasing, I said mismanagement is an increasing problem. I also made it very clear that I was speaking from my personal experiences as a dog trainer/behavior counselor and prez of RPB.
I see mismanagement as an increasing problem - I even went out of my way to state with ALL breeds as I do anytime I make a statement that can be twisted in order to avoid specifically having someone say, "See Pit Bulls/their owners = more/worse/whatever!"; I do see a large number of Pit Bull/"pit bull" attacks reported (doesn't matter what the breed involved actually is in terms of what I'm talking about here - public reads it and sees "pit bull" = one specific breed). People need to know that lack of education leads to mismanagement leads to attacks, of which there are many. "Large" is subjective: you might scan Google news in the morning and read headlines, and to you, it's not a large number of attack reports specifically naming "pit bulls". To me, it's a large number.
Everything you are saying - it's not news to me. ANYTHING that is remotely not seen as nice and fluffy and shooting down BSL (i.e. by using numbers to support the anti-BSL stance) is viewed nowadays by "pit bull" advocates as being harmful and supportive of BSL. I am VERY careful with what I say. But my material will never ever be sanitized to the point where it is devoid of all specificity, nor will I discount my OWN experiences and perceptions and stop sharing those things with people to help educate them.
So here I am yet again being told I'm hurting the breed. WTF ever. To be honest, I'm pretty much done with "pit bull advocacy"; the blog I posted today was written 2+ years ago, I just decided today to put it up because at this point, I don't really care what other advocates think of me. I'm tired of the bullshit, the misinformation, the refusal to be honest with the public and owners, and the sugar-sweet crap that gets pushed down everyone's throat.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 17:44:56 GMT -5
Yeah, sorry, I wrote what I wrote and I stand by it. Period. People can and will twist facts and figures to prove a point, this happens on BOTH sides of the fence.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 17:08:28 GMT -5
Yeah, I believe mismanagement is an increasing problem. Increasing as in more and more people owning this breed without knowing what they are doing - dogs in general for that matter. Sorry, I don't believe this breed is in great shape in this country, I believe a huge number of people who own them SHOULD NOT, and I believe there is a crisis. Maybe "numbers" don't give you cause for concern, but from where I'm standing and the hands on work I have done for so long with both the public and the dogs, I'm very concerned.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 16:24:01 GMT -5
I love a good debate, ME, you know that! FWIW, the way I handle the "cure the behavior"-minded, is to tell them that a behavior cannot be UNlearned. Once a dog has aggressed, chances are there has been some environmental reinforcement that dog received for aggressing, and it's likely to aggress again. Even humans with bad habits who make a conscious effort to say, "I'll never do that again!" are no where near fail-proof. Now imagine dogs, who can't make such a decision.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 15:56:13 GMT -5
I never said they were increasing. I said there is a large number of attacks occurring. Mismanagement is an increasing problem as more and more people get these dogs with no clue as to how to properly handle them. That's the point I was trying to get across.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 15:35:01 GMT -5
I'm curious about this statement: " It is mismanagement that is an increasing problem and a huge factor contributing to the large number of Pit Bull (and all dog) attacks on other members of their own species that are regularly appearing in papers across the country." What stats are you drawing from to support that claim? I'm not aware of any national database that tracks dog bites by breed. (I'm not aware of any reliable database that tracks dog-dog bites/attacks, either). The databases that do attempt to track bites by breed use the same flawed breed identifications as the media, and are not reliable. As you often point out, many of the dogs that get labeled as pit bulls are not Pit Bulls (as you define them: APBTs). I'm speaking from my experience. Dog attacks don't happen in a vacuum - humans mismanage the situation, IME.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 15:31:30 GMT -5
Remember: gameness isn't aggression! But in order to find out if a dog is game, the dog has to be willing to fight. A lot of game dogs from what I've read/been told, were pretty much chill with other dogs, or at least not reactive. They mainly showed aggression when confronting another dog in a pit - a high stress, do-or-die setting, where these dogs were basically conditioned by the environment to fight. Believe me, I'm well aware that dogs will fight when not "trained/conditioned" but it just think it is important to find a balance and recognize that we can inadvertently sell the dogs short by insisting they are "genetically dog aggressive". That doesn't mean I think you should go take your "well raised from a puppy" Pit Bull to the dog park anytime soon. Just putting some thoughts meandering through my head down in post form.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 15:26:23 GMT -5
Yes, I know who's site this is. But facts are facts, and the fact is, the APBT is not, never was, a "farm dog" or a "herding dog". They just weren't, and like the author of this blog, I've never found any real evidence of this breed having been a "farm dog" originally. Maybe because, um, they weren't. thetruthaboutpitbulls.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-myth-of-herding-pit-bull-farm-dog.htmlThe point in my posting this here, is that our enemies are paying attention to and catching onto the lies/half-truths "pit bull advocates" are twisting to promote an agenda. Of course I am ANTI BSL AND PRO PIT BULL. But I'm pro truth, and it's absolutely ridiculous that people who insist on telling the truth about these dogs get told they are hurting the breed, when people who lie-to-help are having THEIR information used against the dogs, too.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 14:35:55 GMT -5
Aside from OCD behaviors, and instinctual fixed action patterns (stalk-chase-kill), I'm not aware of behavior being genetic, per se, as far as behavioral science is concerned, which is why I steer clear of labeling any behavior "genetic" at this point. But I'm pretty much a straight Skinnerian when it comes to behavior, so....
Obviously I do believe in the power of selective breeding, and why certain breeds are prone to showing certain behaviors on a more common/regular basis. I'm more inclined to say temperament is genetic vs behavior that is manifested as a result of said temperament. If that makes any sense whatsoever?
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 14:22:18 GMT -5
I'd rather not get nailed to the wall. This is why RPB talks about the likelihood of Pit Bulls showing dog-directed aggression, and what to do in order to handle it and avoid problems (be prepared for it, separate dogs, no dog parks, etc) without actually saying "Pit Bulls are genetically dog aggressive".
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 14:14:54 GMT -5
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 13:52:48 GMT -5
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 13:05:18 GMT -5
but what about the ones who are DA? even when raised correctly, nature and nurture and you still get a dog that wants to throw down even if it never did? sorry, just picking your brain on your blog- i really like it but i know some folks might question what i am asking lol It's ok! I tried to say dog-aggression can be breed-specific without outright SAYING it is genetic because as an org, I don't want us to be quoted as ever saying, "pit bulls are genetically dog-aggressive" (which often gets translated into "Pit Bulls are genetically aggressive"). But I try to be balanced and make sure people know they are likely to see it in their own dogs. I said this: "..science has pretty much come to the conclusion that behavior is an inextricable combination of nature and environmental learning. For a complex notion like aggression (which is not a single behavior but a suite of behaviors), there are no simple answers."which mentions nature AND nature, and also this: "I can't prove percentage-wise or point to a study that shows that Pit Bulls exhibit a higher rate of dog-directed aggression than all other breeds (although I do believe that they exhibit a higher rate than many other breeds). This is a breed, after all, that was carefully selectively bred specifically for dog on dog combat."What I don't want to do is make blanket statements like, "Pit Bulls are definitely a dog-aggressive breed, they are born aggressive" when I have zero science/studies to back that up. There is no "aggression gene" in Pit Bulls that we know of, and at the end of the day, all we have to show that Pit Bulls in general tend to be dog-aggressive, is our own empirical evidence. Those of us who have spent a lot of time around Pit Bulls know how common dog-directed aggression is, it's seen as normal. A lot of people who have adopted a Pit Bull-mix or misidentified "pit bull" and only have experience with one or two soft dogs are going to say, "THAT'S CRAZY! MY DOG GETS ALONG WITH ALL DOGS!" That is THEIR experience, but we all know it's coming from very limited experience with dogs that aren't even actual APBT.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 11:59:33 GMT -5
Ohhh I missed your birthday! I'm sorry. I hope you had a great day!
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 11:58:54 GMT -5
I don't classify aggression as "genetic", mainly because that is not what the science teaches, but we all know some dogs are just "wired" badly. I think the litters of APBT pups that fight practically as soon as their eyes open are a good empirical example of aggression being more than just environment.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 10:24:58 GMT -5
^ thank you
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 9:48:21 GMT -5
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 8:48:56 GMT -5
I didn't even run the post past you first because I knew you would agree This is actually olllllld, I've been sitting on it for a year or two.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 8:24:29 GMT -5
FEDERATED HUMANE ALERT
Greetings!
Federated Humane Societies of Pennsylvania is forwarding this announcement for a FREE
animal fighting and cruelty investigations training
presented by HSUS. Please consider taking advantage of this opportunity!
The Humane Society of the United States is now offering free training to animal control, law enforcement, prosecutors, judges, shelter staff, and key volunteers on how to recognize the signs of animal fighting and strengthening convictions.
The discussion will be led by national animal fighting expert: Janette Reever, Deputy Manager of Animal Fighting Investigations Humane Society of the United States.
This training will cover:
* What is dogfighting , who participates, and how are the fights conducted
* Training aids, paraphernalia and other conditioning techniques
* Investigating animal fighting complaints and plain view
* Evidence and collection
* Court room testimony
* What do you do with the animals
Wednesday, July 24, 2013
8:00am-12:00pmLaw enforcement personnel
1:00-4:00pmShelter staff and key volunteers
Pennsylvania Farm Show Complex, VIP Room
2300 N. Cameron Street
Harrisburg, PA
REGISTRATION
To register, please RSVP at humanesociety.org/harrisburgdogfighting. If you have any questions, contact Sarah Speed at 717.440.5527 or email sspeed@humanesociety.org by July 19. SPACE IS LIMITED.
Due to the confidential nature of the material presented in the class, enrollment is restricted to animal control & law enforcement officers, prosecutors, judges, shelter staff, and key volunteers.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 2, 2013 7:47:46 GMT -5
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