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Post by RealPitBull on May 19, 2008 12:30:38 GMT -5
I trained tyler not to pull on the leash using the jerking method I've seen on cesar. Before using that I did try the verbal commands such as "ah ah" a stern "no" and even the sharp "shh" sound Cesar does but none of that worked. So I tried distracting her with a toy as I read on a website and that sent her into a playful mode which wasn't helping either. I tried to run with her to tire her out so at the end of our run we could walk home without pulling...I tried that for two weeks to no avail. But when I used the jerking method she stoped pulling completely after about three walks. Couple things  Dogs aren't verbal creatures. They have NO idea what words are, or meaning behind the words. Because us humans use words so extensively communicating with each other, we tend to use and assume a lot about how others - including other species - view those words we use. Dogs have no idea what ah-ah means - it's just sound. Some trainers suggest using ah-ah as what's called a No Reward Marker (NRM). But it's not the SOUND that is meaningful - it's what happens before and after that sound that GIVES the sound meaning. A NRM has a very precise use - it's meant to let the dog know that he is not getting positive reinforcement (R+) (usually food) at that moment, because he did not perform a behavior that usually gets that R+. I only suggest using the NRM AFTER a dog has learned a specific behavior well - in other words, it's on cue and the dog will respond in many environments. I'll use SIT as an example....if I cue SIT, and my dog doesn't, I'll say ah-ah! and remove attention for a second or two. Then I'll try again. My dog should be more likely to respond to sit this time around. You have to have this process repeated for it to mean anything to the dog. Just randomly saying ah-ah to a pulling dog won't do you any good. Jerking on the leash can do damage to a dog's spinal column and trachea. Will what you're doing have a bad effect on her future behavior? I cannot say. I will tell you that you need to understand how a leash jerk works to stop behavior - it is uncomfortable/hurts the dog, and the dog learns to avoid the jerk by NOT pulling. If it wasn't uncomfortable or hurtful, it wouldn't work to stop the pulling. This isn't a judgement - I just want to make sure that people understand what they are choosing to do to their dogs when they use physical punishment. There are lots of great books out there on training positively - one of the best books for beginners is Pam Dennison's The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Training. Loose leash walking (LLW) is difficult to teach without lots of consistency and reinforcement for NOT pulling. You will also need to 'manage' your dog during the training process to prevent pulling - I use a no pull harness like the Sensation Harness or Easy Walk or a Gentle Leader. Here is a good little article that talks about teaching LLW positively: www.clickertraining.com/node/541and this: www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/lltotal.htmI'll probably be posting a sticky on teaching LLW positively, soon. |
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Post by calidrill on Jun 5, 2008 21:29:55 GMT -5
Ok so I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anything anyone said about Cesar or their training methods all I am giving is my own opinion. Being in the science field I have done some research on these methods after I seen them. I do not agree with the snap and jerk type of method but as i recall the severity being described was never used. I agree with using natural ways of training and becoming one with the animal. Studying wildlife I know in many ways you must become one with the animal you are studying and learn their patterns. I have done this with my pit bull along with positive reinforcement and it has worked well. What it comes down to is that I feel each dog is different and going to respond a different way. What works for one will not work for another. Cali may respond to a look I give her while my beagle Dolly will not since she is a hound and must hear you in order to respond. I also believe it depends on the humans personality. As to us being verbal- well this is true but one thing to always remember is according to science we are all mammals, all coming off the same family of vertebrates, we just branched in a different direction. So its not a human training a dog, its an animal training a different animal. ;D
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Post by RealPitBull on Jun 6, 2008 7:14:30 GMT -5
Hi Calidrill.....
Thanks for posting. Just one comment - the laws of science apply to anything with the capability to perceive stimuli. In that vein, proper application of positive reinforcement methods will work for ANY dog. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine when people say, "Well, positive training is fine for SOME dogs but others will need something more". No, science has shown R+ works. PERIOD. The application of the method is most often what is the problem, not the method itself.
I'm using your post as a springboard to post the above - not saying YOU were saying this.
;D
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Post by smilinpitbull on Nov 1, 2008 20:22:02 GMT -5
Cesar does two things well that I think people can benefit from
LEADERSHIP
EXERCISE
The rest is highly coreographed madness. No way would I ever recommend alpha rolling a dog to curb aggression. Or flooding a fearful dog until they give up. I'd recommend a gradual desensitization program that is far less stressful to the dog but that doesn't make for fancy TV
Did anyone catch the show where he tried to take on a "red zone" dog and then several fights broke out in his own pack. Then he tried swapping the couple's dog for one of his own dogs - saying they would be better off without the dog they love, just pick one that he has there and leave their dog to him. Not a single break stick in sight : (
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Post by catahoulagirl on Nov 2, 2008 0:55:47 GMT -5
I caught the "red zone" dog and the fights within his pack and no break sticks. I also noticed the shock collar long before he brought it up. This dog was not "red zone" until the couple bought in on the "I can train your dog in no time to be just like my dog." and sent them off to a trainer who used shock collar training. That was the onset of the problem, transerred aggression from being  instead of taught. I feel so sorry for that poor dog being put through all that. I did admire the owners for not giving up on the dog and 'trading' it for one of Cesar's pack. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 3, 2008 9:17:56 GMT -5
Cesar does two things well that I think people can benefit from LEADERSHIP EXERCISE Sure, absolutely. BUT I find these two concepts SO INCREDIBLY BASIC, and ANY trainer that was even half way decent would recommend these things. There are soooo many great trainers out there that I would point to that say the same thing, that IMO it's not even worth mentioning these things about CM especially considering what he does wrong is SO detrimental. I don't want to ever give the impression that I would be/could be recommending him in any way, shape or form. JMNSHO  Ha, I love how you said that. I didn't watch it (I cannot bring myself to, anymore), but I heard about it. I thought it sounded pretty insane, even by CM standards. |
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Post by emilys on Nov 4, 2008 15:30:32 GMT -5
I never thought he was as dreadful as most of you guys, but lately, well..
You know the whole "hand is a bite" thing?.. where he pokes his fingers at the dog to distract and correct it, because it mimics how dogs correct each other (ugh)?
Seems it wasn't working.. and now he's doing a sort of "push/kick behind his back" thing (hard to describe if you haven't seen it). Really really bad... you know this is going to lead to BAD things, as when someone kicks a dog HARD.
The red zone pit bull epidsodes have been horrific. I'll never forgive him for allowing an out of control pit bull to attack his sweet old sausage-pit "Daddy".
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 4, 2008 16:19:44 GMT -5
..... now he's doing a sort of "push/kick behind his back" thing (hard to describe if you haven't seen it). Really really bad... you know this is going to lead to BAD things, as when someone kicks a dog HARD. Yeah, I'm not surprised at this. An episode from a while back showed him essentially kicking a dog (using the sole of his foot to push a reactive dog around), and I said then when I saw it, that was going to lead to people kicking their dogs, even though he kept saying, "This is NOT kicking!" Yeah right, Cesar. Now I guess he actually is using this or a similar (?) "technique" on a regular basis? He is DISGUSTING. Yes, disgusting. |
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Feb 25, 2009 12:47:35 GMT -5
I personally LOVE Cesar. I am so impressed by his dog psycology center !!!! Look at ALL those APBTs running around and playing, living, swimming, running together! I aspire to learn how to do this myself. I agree 100 %!!!!! I love Ceasar Milan, he's fantastic!! It doesnt matter to me what all these studies or websites say about him, I use his methods in my home with my dogs and they work! I dont let science or my neighbor for that matter decide how I will train my dog, I use what I know works, and Ceasar's method's work! He doesnt kick, he bumps, two very different things. I've seen someone kick a dog and I've seen Ceasar bump a dog with his foot, very different. I Love him!! |
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Post by bamapitbullmom on Feb 25, 2009 14:21:29 GMT -5
Hi Chloe~
I'm not going to get into my spiel about CM but it was fascinating to me that you stated that you didn't care what "all these studies and websites" say about him, plus dismissing science (proven learning theories).
I would like to know (simply out of curiousity) if you have read about or researched other methods and the reasons behind them? I would strongly urge you to do so and then see what you think or how your impression is changed, if at all.
I'd also like to mention that CM is not a trainer. I don't even agree that he "trains" people. He often gives very dangerous advice, has caused multiple and avoidable injuries to owners and dogs and has caused great injury to one dog in particular via a treadmill which resulted in a huge lawsuit and a very injured Lab.
I agree with the importance of exercise (though by his own admission, he runs dogs up to 6 hours a day) and structure. Not everything he does is bad. But very much of it is.
The emphasis on dominance is so outdated and ineffective. There's nothing quite as silly as a human pretending to be a wolf pretending to dominate a domesticated dog.
Dominance is not a "title" or an action, it is a goal.
CM claims that our dogs are dominating us by going through doors first or walking ahead of us. Dominant dogs (and I use the term only in reference to dog-dog relations) don't waste their much needed energy on such silly and unreasonable actions. Dogs go through doors first b/c they want to go outside. It doesn't bump them up a notch in rank.
Dominate leaders control the resources and access to them. That's about it and there are only 3 things which are important enough to battle for: food, procreation and territory.
If you, as an owner, are the source of all resources and control when your dog has access to each of them you have already established your role in your dog's eyes. It comes easily without force, physical punishment, discipline, domineering actions, "bumping", leash corrections, etc.
I welcome intelligent discussions about differences in methods and respect opinions of those who have different views. But I prefer to have these discussions with those who have given the other methods, the science the respect of research and benefit of the doubt before blowing it off.
You may be very surprised at what you find when you crack such incredible books such as The Culture Clash, The Other End of the Leash, Don't Shoot the Dog, Power of Positive Dog Training, etc. and I strongly suggest that you do in order to understand what you are disagreeing with.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 25, 2009 15:38:42 GMT -5
I agree in part with chloe and Bama. I think chloe brings up a very good point when it comes to training, you should use what works. If that is CM methods so be it. Lots of people have used them, and they have worked for many people. And if she feels she is not doing harm to the dog, she is entitled to her own opinion.
Now, to what Bama said, i agree with that too. The "dominance" or alpha theory is outdated. When the theory came about the wolves the scientists observed were in forced packs (meaning not of the same bloodline) and in captivity. Wolves in the wild live as families of humans do. The mother and father are only dominant in the sense that they run the family, much the way a human mother and father do. And the wolves rarely battle for dominance, because in a natural setting there is no hierarchy.
But again, to each his/her own. I have seen improvements in some areas with my own dog using CM's methods, and I have also seen improvement using positive reinforcement. The main thing about dog training is that is it not an exact art. You MUST be willing to adapt and change in order to find the best way to train your dog. I personally think some light physical interaction/communication is helpful, but I like reinforcing with treats because my dog loves them (and i get an instantaneous response).
As for:
I think it is fine to use some of his methods (if that suites you) but please do not admire his center. NO pack of dogs in the wild would ever live in a pack of thirty-forty dogs. Why? Because wolf "packs" are families and a pack with forty dogs wold have to do an enormous amount of hunting to feed all of them. Also, they may play just fine on the TV show but off screen, we will never know. As for wanting to have a pack like his, I would advise against it. The most I would ever say to have is four and you (plus significant other, or kids) and there you go, to them that is a normal sized pack. Also if you try for that many dogs look to adopt or buy out of the same litter. Why? Because wolf siblings rarely fight amongst each other. However if you must have that many dogs and can safely house and care for them then I would never say no, but I would advise against it. Out worry not only for the physical welfare of the dogs, but the psychological welfare as well.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 25, 2009 15:42:24 GMT -5
I personally LOVE Cesar. I am so impressed by his dog psycology center !!!! Look at ALL those APBTs running around and playing, living, swimming, running together! I aspire to learn how to do this myself. I agree 100 %!!!!! I love Ceasar Milan, he's fantastic!! It doesnt matter to me what all these studies or websites say about him, I use his methods in my home with my dogs and they work! I dont let science or my neighbor for that matter decide how I will train my dog, I use what I know works, and Ceasar's method's work! He doesnt kick, he bumps, two very different things. I've seen someone kick a dog and I've seen Ceasar bump a dog with his foot, very different. I Love him!! I'm really curious why you don't think science holds any answers in dog training, and how you can so easily dismiss credentialed professionals in the field of dog training? This isn't meant to be an antagonistic question. I am really curious by it because I have encountered SO many Millan fans who just completely dismiss really sound information in lieu of what Millan says/does. What is it about this person , who has no academic credentials and has been so completely dismissed by academia AND practicing trainers/behaviorists as dangerous and detrimental, that makes you follow him? Is it *just* because you use his methods and see results with your own dogs? I can tell you from experience that a lot of what he does WILL work - but just because something seemingly works doens't mean you should DO it or that it won't cause unintended harm. If all you are looking for are results, I assure you, there are many other things you can do that do not cause pain, fear, stress or discomfort that will also get you results. If results aren't the driving force behind your admiration and loyalty to Millan, what is? Also, just a reminder, The Dog Whisperer episodes always run 'do not try this at home' warnings because they know darn well that people can and will get bit or worse trying this stuff on their own dogs. Millan himself gets bit all the time. And even when you work with aggressive dogs, getting bitten all the time is a sign that SOMEthing you are doing isn't right. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 25, 2009 15:46:31 GMT -5
I agree in part with chloe and Bama. I think chloe brings up a very good point when it comes to training, you should use what works. Kicking a dog into heel position may keep him in place; brutally forcing a dog to the ground may teach him 'down'; continually zapping a dog with a shock collar may get him to stop displaying aggression; hanging or helicoptoring a dog as punishment may work to supress behavior....but because some of these things may seemingly work, does that mean they are ethical and humane and we SHOULD use them? I respectfully disagree that just because something 'works' we are entitled to do it. |
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Post by andreacassel on Feb 25, 2009 15:51:27 GMT -5
I agree Mary, because all that does is get us back to the "why do we hurt animals when we are training them - because we can" theory of dog training.
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snipe
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Post by snipe on Feb 25, 2009 15:52:05 GMT -5
well I did not get the sense that the things chloe was doing were that extreme, and you'll notice that in the rest of my post I disagreed with many of his methods, and clarified that point.
i meant that you need to have many methods you understand and can use but or course "continually zapping a dog with a shock collar may get him to stop displaying aggression" i would and have disagreed with, STRONGLY.
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 25, 2009 15:54:53 GMT -5
I agree Mary, because all that does is get us back to the "why do we hurt animals when we are training them - because we can" theory of dog training. BINGO! |
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Feb 25, 2009 16:17:31 GMT -5
Hi Chloe~ I'm not going to get into my spiel about CM but it was fascinating to me that you stated that you didn't care what "all these studies and websites" say about him, plus dismissing science (proven learning theories). I would like to know (simply out of curiousity) if you have read about or researched other methods and the reasons behind them? I would strongly urge you to do so and then see what you think or how your impression is changed, if at all. I'd also like to mention that CM is not a trainer. I don't even agree that he "trains" people. He often gives very dangerous advice, has caused multiple and avoidable injuries to owners and dogs and has caused great injury to one dog in particular via a treadmill which resulted in a huge lawsuit and a very injured Lab. I agree with the importance of exercise (though by his own admission, he runs dogs up to 6 hours a day) and structure. Not everything he does is bad. But very much of it is. The emphasis on dominance is so outdated and ineffective. There's nothing quite as silly as a human pretending to be a wolf pretending to dominate a domesticated dog. Dominance is not a "title" or an action, it is a goal. CM claims that our dogs are dominating us by going through doors first or walking ahead of us. Dominant dogs (and I use the term only in reference to dog-dog relations) don't waste their much needed energy on such silly and unreasonable actions. Dogs go through doors first b/c they want to go outside. It doesn't bump them up a notch in rank. Dominate leaders control the resources and access to them. That's about it and there are only 3 things which are important enough to battle for: food, procreation and territory. If you, as an owner, are the source of all resources and control when your dog has access to each of them you have already established your role in your dog's eyes. It comes easily without force, physical punishment, discipline, domineering actions, "bumping", leash corrections, etc. I welcome intelligent discussions about differences in methods and respect opinions of those who have different views. But I prefer to have these discussions with those who have given the other methods, the science the respect of research and benefit of the doubt before blowing it off. You may be very surprised at what you find when you crack such incredible books such as The Culture Clash, The Other End of the Leash, Don't Shoot the Dog, Power of Positive Dog Training, etc. and I strongly suggest that you do in order to understand what you are disagreeing with. Hello, Actually, I know a lot about dog training. My mom is a professional dog trainer for obedience, conformaiton and agility. I grew up around it, therefore have a lot of knowledge. My parents also used to show and breed GSD's and Rotties. I volunteer at a shelter walking and training dogs. I have not read any of the books you referred to though, I just might though. My comment about the whole science and studies thing was meant like this...I am not going to do something or not do something because studies or statistics show it doesnt work for some people. You can take 10 different people all with different backgrounds and have them all do the same study and they will all come up with a different end result. I'm not going to use a method on my animals just because this study or that study says I should, I'm going to use the method that works for me, my dog and my family. My way might not work for you and you might not like my way but I do. I dont hurt my animals, I dont kick Chloe if she's not walking the way I want her to. I just use what works for me and CM does. One more note, I have to say that I really appreciate how polite you were even though you dont agree with me. I have been a member to another forum that wasnt like this one at all. I really enjoy this one and you guys have done a really good job. It's nice that we can disagree without tearing eachother apart. I do appreciate your opinions and advice. |
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Feb 25, 2009 16:20:23 GMT -5
I agree in part with chloe and Bama. I think chloe brings up a very good point when it comes to training, you should use what works. If that is CM methods so be it. Lots of people have used them, and they have worked for many people. And if she feels she is not doing harm to the dog, she is entitled to her own opinion. Now, to what Bama said, i agree with that too. The "dominance" or alpha theory is outdated. When the theory came about the wolves the scientists observed were in forced packs (meaning not of the same bloodline) and in captivity. Wolves in the wild live as families of humans do. The mother and father are only dominant in the sense that they run the family, much the way a human mother and father do. And the wolves rarely battle for dominance, because in a natural setting there is no hierarchy. But again, to each his/her own. I have seen improvements in some areas with my own dog using CM's methods, and I have also seen improvement using positive reinforcement. The main thing about dog training is that is it not an exact art. You MUST be willing to adapt and change in order to find the best way to train your dog. I personally think some light physical interaction/communication is helpful, but I like reinforcing with treats because my dog loves them (and i get an instantaneous response). I agree with you. CM's methods are not the only one's we use. I really like positive enforcement too. I'm trying to incorporate some clicker training as well but I'm not as consistent with that yet, probably because the whole clicker thing is new to me. |
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Feb 25, 2009 16:35:32 GMT -5
I agree 100 %!!!!! I love Ceasar Milan, he's fantastic!! It doesnt matter to me what all these studies or websites say about him, I use his methods in my home with my dogs and they work! I dont let science or my neighbor for that matter decide how I will train my dog, I use what I know works, and Ceasar's method's work! He doesnt kick, he bumps, two very different things. I've seen someone kick a dog and I've seen Ceasar bump a dog with his foot, very different. I Love him!! I'm really curious why you don't think science holds any answers in dog training, and how you can so easily dismiss credentialed professionals in the field of dog training? This isn't meant to be an antagonistic question. I am really curious by it because I have encountered SO many Millan fans who just completely dismiss really sound information in lieu of what Millan says/does. What is it about this person , who has no academic credentials and has been so completely dismissed by academia AND practicing trainers/behaviorists as dangerous and detrimental, that makes you follow him? Is it *just* because you use his methods and see results with your own dogs? I can tell you from experience that a lot of what he does WILL work - but just because something seemingly works doens't mean you should DO it or that it won't cause unintended harm. If all you are looking for are results, I assure you, there are many other things you can do that do not cause pain, fear, stress or discomfort that will also get you results. If results aren't the driving force behind your admiration and loyalty to Millan, what is? Also, just a reminder, The Dog Whisperer episodes always run 'do not try this at home' warnings because they know darn well that people can and will get bit or worse trying this stuff on their own dogs. Millan himself gets bit all the time. And even when you work with aggressive dogs, getting bitten all the time is a sign that SOMEthing you are doing isn't right. I responded to another persons reply Bama I think and you will find some answers to your questions there in my reply. As for dismissing the other trainers or "credentialed trainers" that dont like CM, why is it that I should take their word and that's o.k. but I cant take CM's? You dont have to have a piece of paper saying your good at something to be good at it. It's not that I'm trying to "dismiss" them, it's just that there is more then 1 way to train a dog and because one person or 100 people dont like a certain method doesnt mean its going to influence my decision when it's a topic that I do know quite a bit about. And yes, I use his methods because they work for my dog, of coarse I wouldnt use a method that doesnt work. His method's wont work for every dog but I know several that they do work for. CM's method's that we use, dont hurt our dog, they dont scare our dog and they dont stress our dog, so what harm will it cause? Yes, again, results are what drives my admiration and loyalty to CM along with various other trainers as well. |
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Feb 25, 2009 18:04:33 GMT -5
I agree Mary, because all that does is get us back to the "why do we hurt animals when we are training them - because we can" theory of dog training. Just to make myself clear, I dont hurt my animals. I dont kick her, strangle her, pinch her or do anything else to her that causes her pain. I dont use scare tactic's either. I just teach her, with love, discipline, consistency and praise. I dont tell her she's doing something right when she's not and I dont hurt or scare her for doing something wrong. When she gets it right, she gets lots of praise and sometimes even a treat. When she gets it wrong, I make her do it again the right way and praise her for it. This idea that people who use CM's ways hurt their pets is crazy to me. Of coarse there's people who do it wrong and probably do cause pain, but those who do it correctly, do not. Any method used wrong can cause pain, fear or anxiety. I'm sure you could even find someone out there who screwed up their dog using clicker training that doesnt mean clicker training is bad, it just means not everyone knows how to properly do it. I like clicker training too and I also use it. |
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Dogs aren't verbal creatures. They have NO idea what words are, or meaning behind the words. Because us humans use words so extensively communicating with each other, we tend to use and assume a lot about how others - including other species - view those words we use. 
I look forward to learning much here