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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 7, 2008 9:20:07 GMT -5
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Post by AmyJo27 on Feb 7, 2008 21:05:45 GMT -5
Me personally I like Cesar Millans methods. I dont know about any of the websites above but I do follow his: 1st exercise, then disipline, then affection and I know it works for my house hold. But there are some things I disagree with. And also he has(in real life) worked with problem dogs(or problem owners as Cesar would say) and truly helped. I guess I have personally used his techniques and seen results! It makes sence: correct the problem before it escalates. I watch his shows and have read both his books and it all makes sence. When he lived in Mexico he watched packs of dogs "do there thing." He would study the alpha male and imitate what it did. I also think before you critisize too much you should at least read his first book called, Ceaser's Way. Also read this: Last summer one of my friends adopted a APBT from a shelter. When they got him they told her that he came from a Pit Bull fighting raid nearby and he was young enough to be adoptable. So, they fell in love, adopted him and named him Petey. When they took him home he acted just fine with there other dog named Wishbone. They left them both alone for about 1 hour than came home to a horrible mess and realized how wrong the shelter was about him. Petey met them at the door with blood on his chest and wagging his tail, Wishbone was laying on the floor with his chest cut deep. Wishbone got stiches and I got a phone call. I went over the next day to meet Petey, he greeted me with a wet tongue and a wagging tail! I decided I would wear him out THEN see how bad the problem was. I walked him for about 2 hours. Then I wanted to challenge him, so I went to a neighborhood that I knew had a lot of fenced and leashed dogs. As soon as we got in the neighborhood, Petey tensed, his head lifted and his hackles raised. I gave him a firm jerk. He relaxed a little, then a dog began barking and Petey lunged. I grabbed the leash and firmly jerked again in a calm manner. Petey looked at me and I said no and continued walking! THen I took him to my house and let him meet my dogs, after his body relaxed, I let him off his leash and he PLAYED with my dogs! Thats about all it took, just what Cesar would "perscribe" I told Peteys owners to be sure and walk him every day. There son said he would let Petey run beside him while he would skateboard. Now Petey is doing much better. He gets along with other dogs but is not left alone with them! I am very proud of him! So I guess it is all what you want to believe, and how you handle your dog!
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 8, 2008 8:34:54 GMT -5
Just an FYI...it's not what I "believe"... I study and subscribe to SCIENCE. I let science dictate how I train. =) I know what Millan does seems to work and may actually work sometimes, but there are better, safer, kinder ways of training. I also know that jerking dogs around can cause behavior problems to worsen, and may also cause physical damage to the skeletal system and trachea.
Also, I've been training dogs for 20+ years. When I started training dogs, everyone jerked their dogs around, alpha rolled them, and tried to imitate canine "pack leaders" - actually, many of these trainers would be indistinguishable from Millan today. Lots of what people used to do back then was based on faulty research (you can see the thread on this page about "Dominance Theory" to learn more about this myth), as well as ignorance of the science of behaviorism.
There are many dog training methods, and the method Millan uses is very old fashsioned. Millan also seems to be learning and growing as the months/years go by so maybe eventually he'll learn more about scientifically sound methods and begin to soften his approach. It's important to remember that Millan is a TV personality first, and a dog trainer second. The show hit big and suddenly he's this "esteemed" dog trainer. That's what Hollywood will do for ya. He's got no certifications and no formal training. To me, that's worrisome.
Many people believe in positive reinforcement (food training) only. Many people believe in JUST punishment training (i.e. jerk-n-praise). Many people mix food training with jerk-n-praise. I choose to use positive reinforcement for a long list of reasons. If you (or others) choose to use punishment-based training techniques, that is your choice and I respect that. I encourage all however to do some minimal reading on learning theory and positive reinforcement, so if they still choose to use punishment based training, it will be an educated decision.
As far as Cesar Millan goes, he's effected a lot of people and many people are head over heels in love with him. But I present information so people get the full picture and aren't completely mislead by Hollywood magic and, in some cases, propaganda.
Hope you can take this post for what it's worth! =)
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Post by AmyJo27 on Feb 8, 2008 21:49:21 GMT -5
I do not use punishment training. And when I say jerk, i dont mean full on fling the dog from the ground. I do not use any pain and abusive training methods!!! A dgo in fear will only obey for awhile until they snap! You dont get respect from hurting them! I know that. Honestly, other than Cesars methods that he explians in his books I dont know how else to correct my dogs when they get mouthy or do something that is not to be done! Maybe you could tell me what you do? My 6 month APBT is very mouthy and I dont know how to handle it! When I say no, he puts his butt in the air and barks at you and thinks you are playing with him! It is frusterating!!! I am open-minded! I dont know what Cesar does when cameras are not rolling and I would LOVE to learn new training technices! Just wanted to inform you I have NEVER injured or laid a hand on my dogs! Sorry for the misunderstanding with that!!!
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Post by mastiffsj on Feb 8, 2008 22:03:03 GMT -5
I have been reading a book by James O'Heare that talks about the long-term effects of aversive training methods, he refers to this as fall out. From my understanding of what I have read, these methods may work in the short run but long-term they push the dog back further and the lashing out that eventually happens is much worse than it was to begin with...very interesting.
Thanks for all of the very informative links, I can't keep up with how many people I hear say they love CM and it makes me cringe!
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 12, 2008 14:02:44 GMT -5
Just to be clear, in scientific jargon, punishment = anything that is meant to lessen the likelihood of a behavior occurring again. It can be as harsh as a sharp leash jerk or zap with an shock collar, or just the word, "no". But if you are doing something that is meant to get your dog to STOP doing a behavior, and that behavior begins to occur less, that is punishment. A leash jerk, no matter how "gentle", is indeed punishment.
The way I train is to manage a dog to prevent bad behavior from occurring. That means, I use leashs, collars, crates, babygates, and my own presence to minimize or eliminate certain behaviors. Then, I set up training situations that allow me to positively reinforce (reward) my dog for doing things that I like. Positive reinforcement is anything at all that the dog is willing to peform a behavior for.
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Post by valliesong on Feb 13, 2008 18:50:38 GMT -5
May I share this?
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Post by RealPitBull on Feb 13, 2008 20:45:34 GMT -5
Sure  |
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Post by pettoprincess88 on Mar 20, 2008 10:44:46 GMT -5
Before i got here I used to love cesar milian's show... but also, his stuff on tv didnt work on my dobie! ha! my dobie is not perfect because i dont have alot of time to work with him. but he's not a terror either the vet's wife was impressed that I got him to sit and stay on the scale...then give me his paw... but thats basically all he can do he sit and stays for his food everyday he can balance a treat on his nose til I say Okay! its cool that I dont even have to touch him to keep him still he pulls....but I have a head collar and he seems to be settled down into it. I think he pulls a little less now... without the head collar I manage to walk him to the vet and out. but i have a strangle collar on him.....probably not the best thing... but I dont jerk him i like keep it nice and high on his neck like how the head collar strap is. when he gets jumpy I say NOand he stops. he knows what no means! i say NO and all my dogs know that it means stop what you are doing. okay one time my Austin had a pop tart from the table halfway in his mouth... I said No! and he completely dropped it that was cool anyways I need to work on finding time to train and excercise my dogs. I am also going to push my brother into helping out too! he has waayy more time than me!! |
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Post by AmyJo27 on Mar 23, 2008 19:03:31 GMT -5
Now I have learned a lot more (thanks to peaceablecanines.com) and all the links I also do not like CM! But still some times when one of my dogs is being naughty I dont know what to do! Boomer NEVER takes me serious! If I say NO he puts his butt in the air and barks at me! I dont know how to handle this, I just ignore him. But then he will keep doing things he knows he isnt supposed to do and teh cycle repeats over and over again!!!
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 15, 2008 18:45:02 GMT -5
Well I like the stuff about the power of the pack, but I tend to feel that the "pack" is a lot more fluid and flexible, as long as everyone will listen to ME! I also ask that Stella KNOW to walk by my side, but I am very cool with her "leading" at times and wandering off in her own direction. When we go off leash, she weaves in zig zags, sniffing, marking and stuff, but never getting more than about ten feet away. I think that is a bigger indicator of our bond as a pack than having her by my side. I do use touches to communicate things (including love and affection), almost as much as I use my voice, for different reasons. My dog is naturally very submissive. If I were to attempt to put her on her side, she'd simply flop and expect tummy rubs! I think it's more than what you believe. I think science is important because it can be proven; I think following nature is most important because it has been proven by our existance and our 10,000 year relationship with our dogs; and I think that when a popular new method or trainer emerges, we should deal with it the way I deal with religion: take what works for you and your dog, and leave what does not!
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 15, 2008 18:51:36 GMT -5
ps as per the TIMES article, I see Cesar offering plenty of affection, after the dog is doing what he wants. I also think that the comment about women is way off... My husband is six feet and two hundred twenty pounds of muscle, has a very strong presence, yet I am the one that usually is the "final word" with both my dog and my child (the cats do as they please...). I generally do not get loud with either, and they have BOTH come to recongnize "the look" which in many instances is enough...
Of course, my dog is still a pup, 14 months and far from mature!
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 15, 2008 19:08:32 GMT -5
And I like the article on the anti-dog whisperer, he seems really good and compassionate. I MUST disagree with Steve Dale, however. Asking the Dane to face his fears quickly and for once and all is, in MY opinion, a much better and healthier thing than what Dale recommends: drugs! I would only sedate my animal if she were anxious about long travel in a crate. In our modern culture, a whopping 50% of people have been diagnosed or treated with meds for some "mental illness", and no one seems to care what the affects of these pyschotropic meds are, meds with alter the chemistry of the brain! Now we want to push this on our animals? It seems like a quick fix it, and a way to avoid any sort of discomfort. The Dane learned that the floor was no threat to him. He got over his issues, without screwing with his brain or taking a super long time coaxing each step, and he was not hurt. He might have even felt a little silly for all the fuss, if he could tell us! It seems a bit like ripping the bandaid off quickly vs a slow, neurotic peeling day by day. I would ask my dog to face her fears, with me at her side, right away rather than letting her live in fear or poisoning her mind (for my own convenience...) Again, I have strong opinions on this, so I don't expect everyone to agree, this is just the way I feel.
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bullygrrl
New Member
~I want to be the person my dogs think I am~
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Post by bullygrrl on Apr 16, 2008 20:09:00 GMT -5
I personally LOVE Cesar. I am so impressed by his dog psycology center !!!! Look at ALL those APBTs running around and playing, living, swimming, running together! I aspire to learn how to do this myself.
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 17, 2008 7:47:49 GMT -5
I personally LOVE Cesar. I am so impressed by his dog psycology center !!!! Look at ALL those APBTs running around and playing, living, swimming, running together! I aspire to learn how to do this myself. Please read some of the links above. You can become a great trainer and achieve wonderful things using cutting edge training techniques and science. Milan looks pretty impressive on TV, but take it from someone who started training 20 years ago using his exact techniques (he's not doing anything new) - there are BETTER ways to train. Much of the stuff Cesar does is based on faulty, old research (ie the pack/alpha theory model). I think if you read some of those links above you'll get a better idea of what Cesar does, as well as the way other trainers work with dogs and why so many people have a problem with Cesar. No offense meant, I know lots of people are very impressed by Cesar and admire him. I just like people to be educated and not dazzled by what they see on TV. Know the whole scoop, then form an opinion  |
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bullygrrl
New Member
~I want to be the person my dogs think I am~
Posts: 7
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Post by bullygrrl on Apr 18, 2008 20:20:44 GMT -5
Yeah I have read the links and I am not sure that these are from credible resources. ( There are two that are broken links) I have also read the books that Millan recommeded in his first book. I have also read books on clicker training. So, yeah, I am not "dazzled by what is on TV" I have done some research. So if you dont recommend a "snap and release" , what do you recommend for a dog that is in the red zone?
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Post by bullymommy25 on Apr 18, 2008 20:51:20 GMT -5
I think the appeal of Cesar is that he shows you the dog psychology center which is pretty cool, and talks about energy and nature. But it's becoming clear to me that there are plenty of other ways to achieve these results which deserve exploring and might benefit our dogs MORE. Again I am totally anti pharmaceuticals, so that's not what I'm saying.
I would think that a dog in the "red zone" might have other issues behind it causing him to behave in such a way. I think our dogs have minds and life experiences, and even Cesar himself says that there are subtle signals being sent between dogs that we cannot read. Snapping and releasing, alpha rolling, or otherwise dominating the dog might stop the immediate dangerous behavior, but is it really going to prevent this behavior as soon as the human leaves? Or when another human who is not as able to thump the red zone dog on his side takes over?
While I am no dog training expert, I simply try to communicate with my current pit bull Stella as best as I can, I feel that if Stella went super aggressive on a dog, there MUST be a reason behind it that needs to be addressed.
I think that dominating her might frighten her into stopping, but will not end the behavior. I would want to know what was causing this: is it a certain dog, a certain situation, smell, what? Stella isn't just a robot, she is experiencing the world in her own ways. The easy way out would be to just dominate her out of the behavior. I'm coming to the line of thinking that this would be just as bad as doping her up on Prozac-to make MY life easier and safer. My goal with my dogs is to make OUR lives better. I am not so sure that these techniques would work, with that as my goal.
My dog began to aggressively bark and growl today, while we were waiting in the parked car for my husband. A child was picked up from his stroller by his father and began to immediately scream and cry, which triggered my dog to really "go off". I was concerned and confused, and most people would react by punishing the dog for this. But then, it just clicked in my head... "she thinks the man is hurting the child". I have a five year old whom my dog adores... she is a huge fan of little people. So I gently moved her from hanging out the window to fully inside the car, and asked her to sit. I began to pet her and talk to her softly, while she watched the father calm down the young child. And sure enough, she began to look with interest, the way she gets when I teach her something new. She did not bark again.
Is it possible that some of these behaviors that we humans don't like are really not that bad, simply a misunderstanding? We all think our dogs are great, better than most humans we know! What if I had yanked her in the car and given her a pinch or something? I think that our dogs deserve the benefit of the doubt here. These are incredibly intuitive animals.
So that is my long-winded half answer to what to do with a red zone case. Again, I'm no pro. But I would want to know WHY my dog was worked up, to the best of my ability. It takes longer, but hey, I have 12-16 years with her, and I want them to be the best possible.
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Post by valliesong on Apr 18, 2008 22:34:34 GMT -5
Yeah I have read the links and I am not sure that these are from credible resources. I am not familiar with all the sources, but IAABC, Pat Miller, and Jean Donaldson are all very reputable and credible. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 21, 2008 7:28:03 GMT -5
Yeah I have read the links and I am not sure that these are from credible resources. ( There are two that are broken links) I have also read the books that Millan recommeded in his first book. I have also read books on clicker training. So, yeah, I am not "dazzled by what is on TV" I have done some research. So if you dont recommend a "snap and release" , what do you recommend for a dog that is in the red zone? Many/most of the names mentioned in the above articles are very well known, very credible trainers/behaviorists that have been working in the field much longer than Cesar Millan, with actual credentials! Cesar Millan has everyone's attention because he's on TV. But there are many, many quality, well-respected trainers/behaviorists with a lot more experience/education than Millan who don't get the exposure he does. See Jean Donaldson, Karen Overall, Kathy Sdao, Karen Pryor, Ian Dunbar, Ken Ramirez, and many others (those are just to get you started). My goal isn't to slam Millan or tell you you are "wrong" for liking him, but the bottom line is he is he does lots of things that many very educated people are appalled by because he appears to snub his nose at science and in many cases what is best for a dog in a given situation. An example - he routinely pushes dogs with aggression and fear issues over 'threshold' - in other words, he pushes them to the point where their fear and/or aggression manifests. This is dangerous for many reasons, but to name two - the more a dog practices a behavior, the worse it gets; and pushing a dog past threshold is very stressful for the dog! As far as your question regarding what would I do with a dog in "the red zone" - I'm assuming you mean an aggressive dog with intent to bite. I work very cautiously with dogs, very rarely does my training involve pushing a dog past threshold (if it does, it's usually because I screwed up!). I work with dogs in a completely different way than Millan - we view dogs in entirely different ways. When I started training 20+ years ago, most trainers trained dogs like Millan does. I used to train exactly the way he does - so I understand the method well. Millan is about pushing dogs to the limit, then punishing the unwanted behavior that pops up from pushing them too far. I work with dogs by setting them up to succeed at a manageable level, teach them a new behavior, and get the unwanted behavior to extinguish (i.e. let it disappear on its own by making sure the dog is not receiving some kind of environmental reward/benefit by performing the behavior). I work with aggression in a "constructional" way. Millan uses the alpha model - i.e. dominates the dog by punishing the behavior - to train dogs. Our two methods are incompatible. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Apr 21, 2008 7:32:39 GMT -5
I My dog began to aggressively bark and growl today, while we were waiting in the parked car for my husband. A child was picked up from his stroller by his father and began to immediately scream and cry, which triggered my dog to really "go off". I was concerned and confused, and most people would react by punishing the dog for this. But then, it just clicked in my head... "she thinks the man is hurting the child". I have a five year old whom my dog adores... she is a huge fan of little people. So I gently moved her from hanging out the window to fully inside the car, and asked her to sit. I began to pet her and talk to her softly, while she watched the father calm down the young child. And sure enough, she began to look with interest, the way she gets when I teach her something new. She did not bark again. Is it possible that some of these behaviors that we humans don't like are really not that bad, simply a misunderstanding? We all think our dogs are great, better than most humans we know! What if I had yanked her in the car and given her a pinch or something? Aggression is a tricky thing, and when your dog exhibits unwanted aggression in a situation like you describe above, I'd generally recommend the same response - redirect, get the dog to do something else, reward the new/calmer behavior. If you had punished your dog in that instance, chances are she'd have started associating similar situations (man w/child) with the pain she received during the punishment. This could cause more aggression down the road. In fact, lots of dogs become increasingly aggressive even when harshly punished. It's a real danger when using any kind of physical force/punishment/correction. |
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