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Post by bullyforus on Jul 6, 2009 19:20:09 GMT -5
This is sort of a disturbing link as he nearly chokes this dog to death - but might be good for folks to see ... channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/dog-whisperer/3252/Overview#tab-Videos/05198_00It *looks* like the dog is lunging at him to attack, I'll grant you that - but I also raise the question ... what would ANY creature do as it is being choked to death and it discovers it is trapped and cannot breathe or get away? I think practically ANY critter would try to lunge and fight back to try to get away or break the grip around their throats. Frankly, I think if a dog is so human aggressive as that - it can never really be trusted around people - and might be best to consider putting it to sleep. A pity yes, because it could likely have been largely averted with proper training and ownership as a puppy. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 7, 2009 7:52:55 GMT -5
Yup, I actually recently posted this link in another thread. He does everything that would instigate retaliation from the dog. In the above link, he does his weird kicking thing and "tsst" hand-bite and the dog goes after him. Then the dog keeps flipping out because the poor thing is being choked and he is PANICKING (when the dog collapses on the ground, you can see the blue tongue). I think the thing that disturbed me the most about this clip was that he had the audacity to claim that the dog was 'relaxing' at the end. Um no, you choked the dog til he nearly passed out and collapsed.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 7, 2009 7:54:30 GMT -5
Oh, and PS CM was called in because this dog was DOG AGGRESSIVE.
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Post by AmyJo27 on Nov 23, 2009 17:53:00 GMT -5
I am honestly so glad that I joined this wonderful forum for countless reasons!
A BIG one being, I LEARNED THE TRUTH ABOUT CESAR MILLAN!!!
I just want to say thank you to you all!
Soon after I joined this forum, I quickly learned about clicker training and what POSITIVE reinforcement REALLY is.
My poor dogs HAD to live with my training decisions. I was one of those: “Firmly (Yet gently) Jerk the leash when a dog begins to act aggressive on walks” I was just another Cesar FINATIC!
Because of this forum, I quickly realized how many other training options there are out there. And because of this forum, my dogs are now Clicker trained and the ONLY training method I use is POSITIVE reinforcement (Now that I know what REAL positive reinforcement is!!!!).
My dogs luckily forgave me for my stupidity!!! They are the ones who had to live with my poor judgment!
So I just wanted to say thank you to Mary for this forum and for informing me about Cesar Millan. I also want to thank everyone else on this forum for agreeing to disagree kindly and informing me when I have been wrong!!!
;D
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Post by suziriot on Nov 23, 2009 18:30:49 GMT -5
Amy Jo that is such a wonderful story to share! I agree, this forum has literally changed my life and we all have the fabulous Mary H. to thank for that. But you should give yourself credit for being open minded and willing to learn new ways of doing things. Too many people have either been brainwashed by so-called "traditional" training theories, or they just have an "I'm always right" mentality and refuse to be open to anything different. So kudos to you! ;D
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Post by AmyJo27 on Nov 23, 2009 23:27:10 GMT -5
Amy Jo that is such a wonderful story to share! I agree, this forum has literally changed my life and we all have the fabulous Mary H. to thank for that. But you should give yourself credit for being open minded and willing to learn new ways of doing things. Too many people have either been brainwashed by so-called "traditional" training theories, or they just have an "I'm always right" mentality and refuse to be open to anything different. So kudos to you! ;D Thank you!  I was reading through the beginning posts on this thread and I was honestly embarrassed.  But my old posts made me realize how much this forum has changed me and my relationship with my dogs!!! If it wasn’t for this forum, I would still probably be watching The Dog Whisperer and using Cesar’s training methods!!! My poor dogs! They are honestly a lot happier now that I use positive reinforcement (which makes sense ). |
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 24, 2009 10:03:48 GMT -5
I am honestly so glad that I joined this wonderful forum for countless reasons! A BIG one being, I LEARNED THE TRUTH ABOUT CESAR MILLAN!!! I just want to say thank you to you all! Soon after I joined this forum, I quickly learned about clicker training and what POSITIVE reinforcement REALLY is. My poor dogs HAD to live with my training decisions. I was one of those: “Firmly (Yet gently) Jerk the leash when a dog begins to act aggressive on walks” I was just another Cesar FINATIC! Because of this forum, I quickly realized how many other training options there are out there. And because of this forum, my dogs are now Clicker trained and the ONLY training method I use is POSITIVE reinforcement (Now that I know what REAL positive reinforcement is!!!!). My dogs luckily forgave me for my stupidity!!! They are the ones who had to live with my poor judgment! So I just wanted to say thank you to Mary for this forum and for informing me about Cesar Millan. I also want to thank everyone else on this forum for agreeing to disagree kindly and informing me when I have been wrong!!! ;D Awwwww! Thank you for the kind words. And thank YOU for being a part of this forum, you are such an asset - to the forum and the breed.  The goal is just to EDUCATE. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Nov 24, 2009 10:06:29 GMT -5
Amy Jo that is such a wonderful story to share! I agree, this forum has literally changed my life and we all have the fabulous Mary H. to thank for that. But you should give yourself credit for being open minded and willing to learn new ways of doing things. Too many people have either been brainwashed by so-called "traditional" training theories, or they just have an "I'm always right" mentality and refuse to be open to anything different. So kudos to you! ;D Thank you, Suzi. LOL *Blush blush blush* Seriously...lol I don't really know how to take compliments.....but they are APPRECIATED. And boy am I glad to have you here, too. And like you said, it is SO TRUE, that open-minded, thoughtful, receptive minds like Amy Jo's should be praised and valued. TOO often people refuse to allow themselves to be educated. There is comfort in naivete. Differences of opinion are fine, and that's not what I am talking about here....just a willingness to face new information, consider it, absorb it. Many people refuse to even open up to the possibility of a different way. THOSE are the scary people. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 29, 2010 8:54:51 GMT -5
Haven't posted on this thread in a while, but I had a brief, interesting email discussion with a friend recently (and RPB volunteer, actually). This person is not a CM fan, and she subscribes to R+ training methods. She had sent me a link to a Youtube vid done by a pro trainer, which was using Premack Principle to curb fence running/reactivity. The dogs were off leash, and the trainer was using a clicker. Just demonstrating the basic technique. It was about a ten min vid and frankly, to the casual observer, not much interesting was going on, except you could see the dogs' gradual drop in arousal levels and more checking-in with the trainer. It was cool for a behavior junkie to watch, but not much fun for the casual observer or someone looking for "action dog training shots". Still, what was happening in the vid was poignant. Although slow and not too exciting. Kind of like how scientifically sound, behavior shaping goes in general.
I emailed my friend my thoughts on the vid and she wrote back "I actually found this video sooo boring". And in that little phrase, she truly summed up why Cesar Millan's show is full of jerking, alpha rolling, slamming, kicking, dogs pushed past arousal to the point of extreme aggressive response, and biting: that stuff is "exciting" and "action packed". Sound, humane, positive training is actually usually pretty boring to watch.
At the end of the day, it really IS all about ratings. Victoria Stillwell has managed to be fairly successful, showcasing her humane training techniques in a TV show. But she still has not reached anywhere near the stardom that CM has; and I believe if she didn't have her "tough gal, no-nonsense" schtick, she'd not even have the success she does have.
My point with this post is to remind people that "reality TV" is not about what's real, true, right, best, or ACTUAL reality - it is about ratings, making money, and giving the audience something that they will actually watch.
If you really want to learn how to treat and train dogs, books, seminars and DVDs or working with real, live dog trainers and behavior experts that have credentials, is the way to go.
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Post by RealPitBull on Jul 29, 2010 9:03:45 GMT -5
And although not about dog training, here is a quick little story about "reality" TV....again, just to help remind people that the producers and editors sell you what they want you to buy. They aren't showing you what is ACTUALLY going on: reality shows are STAGED.
A friend of mine recently worked at a fashion event, doing make-up for the runway models. This was a benefit event for cancer and diabetes that took place in NJ a month or so ago. The people from the reality show Jerseylicious were there filming. Jerseylicious and the girls from that show were NOT ACTUALLY INVOLVED in ANYthing related to the show, prepping hair/makeup, NADA. But the cast member that attended the event was filmed making it look like she was indeed involved. The episode featuring the event is going to air in, I believe, Sept, with some staged clips making it look like these people were involved when they were not.
To reiterate, CM is just a "reality star". He has built an empire off of fooling dog owners into believing the hype of a well-crafted publicity stunt that has turned into a long running, highly successful but VERY edited and misleading *television show*. He was someone with NO zero NADA ziltch credentials in dog training, who had been working in the field as a no-body, and just happened to get lucky by being offered this show.
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Post by desertpits on Sept 13, 2010 18:48:11 GMT -5
I will wholeheartedly admit that I struggled with training dogs for years. Nothing ever seemed to work very well for me. I had Dobermans for many years and only one of them was ever really very well trained, the rest were pretty unruly. Then came my first pit bull and Cesar. Now, before you start throwing things at me, just give a chance to explain. ;D What I personally learned from CM's methods is the communication level. Being the leader and communicating with the dog on its level, in a manner that it understands, watching your own energy, etc. Do I kick my dogs? Do I slap them? Do I alpha roll them? Do I jerk them around on their leashes? No, I do not. As already mentioned in a previous post, much of his show is just that, a show for entertainment purposes. I do touch my dogs shoulder to get their attention. I do use a noise that they all know, two noises actually, one they know I want their attention and the second one they know is a correction. I have a very difficult time explaining this to others but one either gets it or they don't. Its communication in a manner that the dog understands. Its not mean, its not abusive, it doesn't need to be. Its CM toned down, way down. I recently helped a small shelter with a pit bull puppy they had that they absolutely could not handle. The ACO claimed he was very aggressive and she thought they were going to have to euthanize him. I went over there, worked with the puppy for a bit using treats and the same methods with my dogs and had him behaving like an angel in a short amount of time. He just needed some direction. The volunteers all stood there in amazement and asked me "how did you do that???" I then showed them what I was doing. Many of them didn't even realize that little touches I was doing, etc. was for training purposes. They were even more stunned when I told them these were basically Cesar Milans communication techniques, just not delivered quite like he does it. One of the volunteers who is also very anti-CM was astounded and even admitted that she didn't realize that was what I was doing. She stood right there and told me "I don't like Cesar Milan at all but the way you are doing this certainly isn't mean or abusive." The puppy did well with the tips I showed them and in fact he was adopted about 1 1/2 weeks later. I am also of the mindset that I will pull useful training methods from many other trainers. I use what works for the dog I am working with. I know many people love clicker training but I really dislike it but I have to admit that I did end up using it for one dog because that is what he would respond to. I admit that I don't like Victoria Stilwell, mostly because her voice and her personality are like fingernails on a chalkboard to me but I have used a few things I've seen on her show. I've learned a number of things from Ann Allums, formerly of Best Friends which was mostly little leash tricks that can really help as well as target training. I basically absorb what I can use from many trainers and leave the rest and I encourage others to do the same. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Sept 13, 2010 22:24:20 GMT -5
It's not that Cesar doesn't do ANYthing right, but his overall methodology is so flawed and the things he does wrong are SO damaging that it's just not worth promoting him over other trainers. And what he tends to do right are such basic things that just about any trainer who makes their living in dogs would know/employ them.
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Post by RealPitBull on Sept 14, 2010 9:25:38 GMT -5
I also have to add, that Cesar's communication level with dogs is HORRENDOUS. He doesn't read dogs well at ALL, which is one reason he gets bitten so often. He is constantly pushing dogs into a stressful state in order to bait them into aggressing so he can phsyically subdue them and look like he has "accomplished" something - he sets dog up to fail, dog aggresses, then he uses his magical "energy" to push the dog into a state of helplessness. Some dogs manage to bite him first, though.
I really encourage you to read this thread and the links at the top, in order to get a better understanding of what Millan does and why top-tier trainers and pretty much the entire academic behavioral field is opposed to what he does to dogs in the name of "rehabilitation".
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Post by emilys on Sept 14, 2010 9:48:28 GMT -5
I also have to add, that Cesar's communication level with dogs is HORRENDOUS. He doesn't read dogs well at ALL, which is one reason he gets bitten so often. He is constantly pushing dogs into a stressful state in order to bait them into aggressing so he can phsyically subdue them and look like he has "accomplished" something - he sets dog up to fail, dog aggresses, then he uses his magical "energy" to push the dog into a state of helplessness. Some dogs manage to bite him first, though.  this is a point that is not made often enough. Most dog trainers never, or rarely, get bitten. Cesar gets bitten all the time, and seems to be proud of it and even seek it out. |
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Post by RealPitBull on Sept 14, 2010 11:44:45 GMT -5
this is a point that is not made often enough. Most dog trainers never, or rarely, get bitten. Cesar gets bitten all the time, and seems to be proud of it and even seek it out. It's really weird, actually. And creepy. The latest clip I saw of him getting bit was twice in a matter of minutes with a highly aroused Bulldog. It's totally normal to him to get bitten. It's like he's so INTO it.  |
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Post by maryellen on Sept 14, 2010 13:20:06 GMT -5
well maybe CM is into S & M and enjoys getting bitten lol.....
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Post by pistis on Sept 14, 2010 13:23:27 GMT -5
Yeah, S&M with his dogs... Mmm! Dirty man.
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Post by RealPitBull on Sept 14, 2010 13:35:18 GMT -5
Yeah, S&M with his dogs... Mmm! Dirty man. I was gonna say that, but reeled myself in. LOL |
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Post by emilys on Sept 14, 2010 18:11:42 GMT -5
Yeah, S&M with his dogs... Mmm! Dirty man. I was gonna say that, but reeled myself in. LOL maybe that's why his wife dumped him... |
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Post by pistis on Sept 14, 2010 19:16:07 GMT -5
Ugghh! Gawd!! Could you imagine walking in on THAT?!?
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But my old posts made me realize how much this forum has changed me and my relationship with my dogs!!!
I look forward to learning much here